Home grown nebari

[Bretts]

I am not into playing with meanings of words. Great, perfect, outstanding, superb whatever word you want to use they are all the same to me. It was the negative of this argument that stated seedlings raised the bar above what could be accomplished by starting the roots over at a later stage of trunk development.
To ground layer and start again is a clean start and that is why I have used this as an example in this discussion as it takes away any concern of having to deal with poor previous work.
So I am still unsure where your stance is Craig it is too much like "having your cake and eating it too" for me. Lets make it clear, can you get as good a result in Nebari from starting a fresh with a ground layer or not?

[anttal63]

I love playing with the meaning of words. Especially around here!

[Mojo Moyogi]

I love playing with the meaning of words. Especially around here!

But you always leave plenty time to play with your trees Ant which is a good thing, yes?

Cheers
Mojo

[Jow]

Ok...

Lets use an example.

Picture one of those Maples with a huge dinner plate sized flat fused Nebari. Now imagine how you go about growing one.

You would start from seed or sapling and grow the roots as you were growing the trunk. The rapid growth of the trunk and branches would ensure that the roots would grow and fuse together, resulting in, with proper root work, a huge fused nebari 10 or so years down the track.

To take a finished tree, and air layer a new set of roots onto it would be a much slower way to get a similar result. To get roots to grow and fuse you need growth which is difficult to get in a finished tree without getting yourself in a position where you would have to cut back hard and re-grow branches etc. due to over thickening. So in this case it would be best to start from seed.

The problem with a lot of air layered trees is that the tachiagari (lower trunk) takes a long time to "get drawn out" into a flare that transitions with the roots. It can happen, but i imagine that for a decent sizes bonsai may take 10+ or so years, in which time you could have grown a similar tree in the ground. So in the end you may have spent the same amount of time on the tree but you have also spent the purchase price of the stock if you went down the layering road.

Air layering for smaller trees is a much better solution as when the diameter of trunk is less the air layer pulls out the trunk much faster and due to the smaller scale of things the everyday branch refining phases may be enough to fuse up a nice base relatively quickly. You will see countless articles in bonsai today and Kinbon about obtaining material via layering for use in Shohin sized trees.

In order to layer you need stock worthy of doing the layer. That can be difficult depending on who you know or where you shop. Often you can grow better stock than most that is available in a short period of time.

So both methods have their place and i would recommend that if you want to become a good grower you master both.

[bodhidharma]

Hmmm i wonder where this leaves a collected tree, of which are some of the most stunning examples in the world.

[Jow]

It leaves you in a great position. Generally people collect trees because of outstanding features. Features that are difficult to replicate in the ground or in pot culture. Therefore it warrants the establishment of new root systems using a variety of techniques as the material is worth it.

[Bretts]

Jow you may very well be right that we could not create such a nebari from scratch without ruining the branches but I guess even you have not tested this or seen it tried. At what point is the trunk too fat or the branches to developed that it won't work. In any event this is talking about a very exaggerated fusing technique and only complicates what is really a simple issue.
I don't know how I am the one accused of changing the goal posts here???

Jow
The problem with a lot of air layered trees is that the tachiagari (lower trunk) takes a long time to "get drawn out" into a flare that transitions with the roots. It can happen, but i imagine that for a decent sizes bonsai may take 10+ or so years, in which time you could have grown a similar tree in the ground.

We only have to look at the various beech in the previous thread about this to see examples of how long this takes and I believe it was unanimously concluded we could not replicate the results of the finished example in the same time from new stock.
In fact one quote from the said article was

Without layering we could not have created such a perfect nebari

Jow
Air layering for smaller trees is a much better solution as when the diameter of trunk is less the air layer pulls out the trunk much faster and due to the smaller scale of things the everyday branch refining phases may be enough to fuse up a nice base relatively quickly. You will see countless articles in bonsai today and Kinbon about obtaining material via layering for use in Shohin sized trees.

The example used was trees of the larger size and the base tapered out very well. I think I can agree that smaller trees take less time but this is not limited to smaller trees.

Jow
In order to layer you need stock worthy of doing the layer. That can be difficult depending on who you know or where you shop. Often you can grow better stock than most that is available in a short period of time.

How about a challenge the negatives grow a tree from scratch and the positives grow a tree from existing stock that needs new roots. Say a medium sized tree to be fair. Lets see who gets the tree excepted to the National collection first.
We could even add up hours spent and materials used to compare cost involved as well.

I agree they have their place. If I set out to create bad roots and then repair them it will take me longer to create good stock. That is not what this is about. The issue is whether we can get to the same level after we come across a tree that has had the mistake made or even realise a mistake we have made.
Yet we still must consider comments from masters that tell us.

Without layering we could not have created such a perfect nebari

[anttal63]

I love playing with the meaning of words. Especially around here!

But you always leave plenty time to play with your trees Ant which is a good thing, yes?

Cheers
Mojo

Must walk the walk!

[anttal63]

Ok...

Lets use an example.

Picture one of those Maples with a huge dinner plate sized flat fused Nebari. Now imagine how you go about growing one.

You would start from seed or sapling and grow the roots as you were growing the trunk. The rapid growth of the trunk and branches would ensure that the roots would grow and fuse together, resulting in, with proper root work, a huge fused nebari 10 or so years down the track.

To take a finished tree, and air layer a new set of roots onto it would be a much slower way to get a similar result. To get roots to grow and fuse you need growth which is difficult to get in a finished tree without getting yourself in a position where you would have to cut back hard and re-grow branches etc. due to over thickening. So in this case it would be best to start from seed.

The problem with a lot of air layered trees is that the tachiagari (lower trunk) takes a long time to "get drawn out" into a flare that transitions with the roots. It can happen, but i imagine that for a decent sizes bonsai may take 10+ or so years, in which time you could have grown a similar tree in the ground. So in the end you may have spent the same amount of time on the tree but you have also spent the purchase price of the stock if you went down the layering road.

Air layering for smaller trees is a much better solution as when the diameter of trunk is less the air layer pulls out the trunk much faster and due to the smaller scale of things the everyday branch refining phases may be enough to fuse up a nice base relatively quickly. You will see countless articles in bonsai today and Kinbon about obtaining material via layering for use in Shohin sized trees.

In order to layer you need stock worthy of doing the layer. That can be difficult depending on who you know or where you shop. Often you can grow better stock than most that is available in a short period of time.

So both methods have their place and i would recommend that if you want to become a good grower you master both.

Jow, Jow, Jow... That is just beautiful... The pulling out of the trunk... The interconnection of roots, veins, muscles, trunk. Top growth = Bottom growth Or Not much top growth = Not much bottom growth. Such logic... Such common sense... Such fact... that it defie's the human brain. We should write erotic bonsai books or/and science fiction bonsai books

[Jow]

I am at work so i cant really answer all your points, but i will leave you with this.

Air layering is a technique, much like any other. There are instances where using that technique will be beneficial and instances where its better to start over.

I guess you have to ask yourself why Japanese growers growing in the ground bother to do root work at all if layering can produce perfect bases. My guess is that a better result in a shorter time frame are able to be achieved by growing from scratch otherwise they would ground grow without lifting or root work and just layer off the trunk. To get the desired trunk thickness this way would be faster but i am guessing the the root base would always be second to well trained seed grown stock. With the odd exception....


Regarding your quote about "without layering this tree could not have had such a perfect nebari":

This is true, the tree in question could not have had such a great change with out layering, it was the perfect tool to use to improve that tree.... that is not to say it is a fix all technique for any stock with bad roots.... again why don't Japanese growers just layer all their field grown stock in stead of doing years of root work on them? It was just last night i was reading an article written by Kimura on field growing quince. He did root work over a period of many years while the trees were in the ground instead of layering off the trees.

anyway.. gotta get back to work....

[Bretts]

Shouting doesn't make you right Antonio Nor does red writing. It only shows that you think majority rules over the facts, are stubborn and not ready to listen to reason.

Jow
Regarding your quote about "without layering this tree could not have had such a perfect nebari":

This is true, the tree in question could not have had such a great change with out layering, it was the perfect tool to use to improve that tree.... that is not to say it is a fix all technique for any stock with bad roots.... again why don't Japanese growers just layer all their field grown stock in stead of doing years of root work on them? It was just last night i was reading an article written by Kimura on field growing quince. He did root work over a period of many years while the trees were in the ground instead of layering off the trees.

I think you are miss quoting her Jow. In fact you are definitely miss quoting as the original quote is

Without layering we could not have created such a perfect nebari

not what you have written.
It was not stated that the tree could not become great without layering for the particular tree this quote was with.
It is stated under a shot that specifically shows the roots up close and is definitely stating nothing more than what I claim.

Jow
I guess you have to ask yourself why Japanese growers growing in the ground bother to do root work at all if layering can produce perfect bases. My guess is that a better result in a shorter time frame are able to be achieved by growing from scratch otherwise they would ground grow without lifting or root work and just layer off the trunk. To get the desired trunk thickness this way would be faster but i am guessing the the root base would always be second to well trained seed grown stock. With the odd exception....

That is the million dollar question here Jow. but I fear that will only complicate the discussion more at this point. Is it possible that air layering is a better option than starting the work from a seedling and not just as good as I argue?. I think this will come down to style species and many other factors that you are relating too. Fig grow ugly thick roots maybe it is better to grow the roots last on that species this is some things I have been considering. Leong suggests that the best roots are produced on ficus by compressing arial roots to the trunk at a later stage of development. The master in this article seems to think that Air layering produces the best roots on the bonsai he created and when compared to roots that are shown from the original tree that although radiate around the tree perfectly they seem too large to me. We see a master nursery man explain how it is common now to grow a large tree and then air layer of several shohin sized trees.

Oh and keep the work up Mate someone has to pull the country out of Debt

[craigw60]

The word perfect has a very specific meaning there is no word play it means without fault, free from any imperfection.
Of course you can grow a good nebari by layering I have never said otherwise. I have a white beech I am going to layer this year because I could never get another one and the nebari is bad. But its not my preference. I am not interested in paying money for trees that need to be repaired unless there is something very outstanding about them, and they are a bit thin on the ground in this country.
Jow that is a great post very clear and concise .
Craig

[Mojo Moyogi]

Shouting doesn't make you right Antonio Nor does red writing. It only shows that you think majority rules over the facts, are stubborn and not ready to listen to reason.

Brett, if only you would take the time to caress the shears as often as you caress the keyboard, I promise that you would find the answers you seek in half the time. Antonio is stubborn, but he is true to his convictions and is learning from actually doing.

Seriously.

Cheers,
Mojo Moyogi

[Bretts]

Have to say I disagree with you again Mojo

[anttal63]

Shouting doesn't make you right Antonio Nor does red writing. It only shows that you think majority rules over the facts, are stubborn and not ready to listen to reason.

ok if you say so

Get over it.


Brett, if only you would take the time to caress the shears as often as you caress the keyboard, I promise that you would find the answers you seek in half the time. Antonio is stubborn, but he is true to his convictions and is learning from actually doing.

Seriously.

Cheers,
Mojo Moyogi

Thanks mojo for your belief of my convictions.