Coconut Bonsai

[Istari]

Hi Guys and Gals,

My girlfriend strikes again with a question im not able to answer, she tricked me into saying that you probably couldnt do a bonsai from a from a palm tree.

Naievely I assumed that the seed being the size of a coconut and palms bein as big as they are that it might just be one of those things that cant be done.

When we got home she googled it... I'll admit I was wrong.

I was wondering if anyone would care to take a guess at how this might be achieved?

Cheers,
Itsy.

[Joel]

Technically, you cant make a bonsai from a palm. Planting something in a bonsai pot does not make it a bonsai. A bonsai is a tree that looks like a mature specimen of that tree or another species. A palm is not a tree. Nor does it look like one.

Go easy on your gf though. And dont tell her i said this!

Joel

[Istari]

excelent the upper hand is mine again!

While I agree with what you say about what consitutes a bonsai, I still think its possible (not that ive seen a finished product of what I class as a tiny palm) as the fronds fall the trunk elongates and the process repeats. If this was forced and the trunk kept thin I see no reason why there couldnt be a tiny replica of a palm. I wouldn't expect it to fruit but I could invision a look a like.

I guess it all comes down to definition tho

Cheers mate.
Itsy.

[Taffy]

I also don't believe you could make a Bonsai from a true palm. Palms don't have wood trunks - they have fibrous tubes that make up the trunk. If you cut the top off a palm - or even cut out the new spike at the top, it will die - it doesn't have the ability to send out new growth from the trunk.

I did a search using: 'Palms + Bonsai'. What came up were mainly Cycads and Ponytails, and a couple of dwarf date palms. All of which cannot be really contained to stay small. Take the top out of a date palm and it will not grow any taller - it will just die off as the old fronds die back. Cycads and Ponytails are not members of the Palm family, but again - especially in the case of Cycads, take out the top in the hope of stopping it growing taller will kill it.

Don't let me put you off though. Have a go if you feel like trying it. At the worst, you'll lose a palm - at the best, you'll have a very unique and unusual Bonsai. It would be very interesting to see what it looked like in 10 or 20 years.

[Graeme]

Just wrote a huge paper on this subject and then - LOST THE LOT
Not going to rewrite it again tonight, but promise I will. Short side of that long story is that, IMHO, it is possible.
Later ....................................................................................................

[Taffy]

Well, you've got my interest - really! I sure don't mind if someone is able to prove me wrong - it all adds to the knowledge pool.

[bonsaibruce]

Greetings,
If you have lived with palm trees next door and their dropping fronds you too would stay away from all things palm.
Many years ago I had a 10 tree forest of Jacaranda seedlings. At a distance it did look like a palm grove. Due to lack of re-potting all the trees became rootbound and died.
Spend your energy wisely.
Happy bonsai,
Bruce.

[Graeme]

OK, so I shall try again. Hopefully Telstra wont go down again, causing me to loose this effort.
First off, we accept Bonsai as a tree planted in a pot or tray. Some will say it is a styled tree planted in a pot and I will get to that bit later.

Now, what follows is something my Bonsai friends in Bali have taught me. I have photos of some of these Palms somewhere, but as I have no idea in which shed or other place they may be, sorry but, right now I can't post them up for you. My Bali mates tell me they have tried a number of Palms, but the only ones they have managed to control properly are the Coconut Palms. In Bali there are 2 types of coconuts growing. One is the common one we all know, growing to heights around 7 or 8 metres high over there, same as the ones growing at Bagara here in Qld and I think the ones up in FNQ, but there is also another type up which only grows to around 3 metres. The frond on these grows to about 1.5 / 2 metres long as opposed to the monsters which grow on the other sort. The other difference is in the fruit. Whereaas the big Mumma has the large round fruit with the smallish round nut inside, the dwarf one has a fruit which is about the size of a kids football and the nut roughly the same football shape, not round. The fruit from the dwarf one is also more yellow. I have not seen the dwarf Malay Coconut here in Queensland, but then haven't looked either. I know they are available in Darwin, so if ever up there maybe worth a look for.

Anyhow - training. This starts from the very germination of the Palm. Once the palm has shot and the tap root has cleared the husk of the nut the nut has to be removed. Dangerous to do and I have lost a few at this stage, but it gets easier from here on in. Once the nut has been removed from the shot plant break the tip off the tap root and plant the palm into a large pot and allow the first frond to grow naturally, allowing it to open normally. This will help set the trunk growing properly. By the way I have trained Coconuts from trunks which shot and grew into the ground, normally, but the root sytem is very hard to manage with these types of palm. So, after the first frond opens your work begins. Allow each subsequent frond to grow to around 2 to 3 inches (50 to 75mm for Imperially challenged ) and then taking a sharp knife slit the membrane up the inside of the new emerging frond. I used a scalpel and worked very carefully as you want to only slice the membrane and not the frond itself. This has the same effect as twisting the sheath from a Ficus leaf, in that the frond is forced to open as an immature frond, not growing to its full length before opening. The cut has to be made very carefully as any damage to the actual frond will stay with the plant until that frond drops from the plant, same as breaking a leaf on the before mentioned Fig. The open frond will be slightly longer than it was when cut open due to the spreading habit of the fronds as they open out, so leaving the frond spike until it is 4 inches long would result in a 4 1/2 to 5 inch frond and so on, meaning that as the palm grows in height they could, if desired, be left to grow longer if a bigger appearing tree was desired.

Now to form the trunk, allow 5 or 6 fronds to grow from the top of the palm and then taking your scalpel again, remove the lowest frond from the trunk. Continue to remove the lowest frond after 2 or 3 new fronds have grown. This allows the trunk to start forming and looking like a true trunk earlier than if allowed to progress naturally. Never allow less than the 5 or 6 fronds to remain on the palm or the trunk becomes to narrow and weak. You will also find from time to time a frond will get nicked while the membrane is being cut, so a good number of fronds on the palm will help cover the fault. As Taffy said as well, if while cutting the membrane you happen to cut off the terminal frond and you also damage the next shoot, which will be starting inside the frond, just throw the palm away as it will die and there would be very little chance of saving it. Having said that, I have seen palms have the centre core frond removed and the palm survived because the next new shoot hadn't been damaged. Problem with a Bonsai Palm is that there is such a small crown to the plant the next shoot is always to close to the crown.

Once the trunk starts to develop you can decide if you want a straight trunk or a trunk with curves. Obviously for a straight trunk just leave the palm to grow naturally, but if you want to induce a few (or one) curve allow the palm to grow a few inches in height and then push it over a bit in the pot. Over time the trunk will curve up again so the crown is growing vertical again. The trunk can be given any number of curves by repeating the above over again.

Although I have seen Coconut palms planted in soil so heavy the water just sat on top of the pot, I found they seem to like a well drained potting mix. They seemed to like almost all types of fertiliser, although they do enjoy the occasional sprinkle of salt over the soil surface. Reporting is a yearly venture and root pruning is done as with any other Bonsai, taking out the thicker roots and developing a finer fibrous root system, which believe it or not happens - and fairly quickly.

Are Coconut Palms Bonsai or a potted oddity? You make your own mind up, but I have seen coastal scenes made up of Coconut Palms, trees/plant material, rocks and sand that looked every bit as good as any tray landscape using conventional trees. I also reckon if the Balinese can stick Coconut palm 'Bonsai' in their display for ASPAC then they should be considered Bonsai, but that is my opinion and as I always say, "I respect your right to disagree with me".

[63pmp]

Graem,

Thanks for taking the time to write out that explanation. Learn't something new today

Thanks

Paul

[Jake]

iv'e seen a couple of date palm bonsai's getting around that look half decent.
cheers for writting that graeme that was a good read mate

[chrisatrocky]

I have had this discussion before. I was once a none believer of bonsai palms, but I have seen bonsai pony tial palms (although not true palms)and they branch quite readily. also seen bonsai banana plantation, dwalf date palms and sago palms readily branch out and look quite effective as bonsai. also the smaller cycads can be used in bonsai. if a small palm in a bonsai pot looks like a mature palm tree in nature, than isn't it a bonsai. it falls into my consept of bonsai.

chris

[MattA]

Graeme thanks for going to the effort to type that information out for us all. I have not tried yet, being under the impression it couldnt be done. That was until a local club member bought a stunning Dwarf date palm bonsai to our club show last year. I wish I had my camera & taken pics. It stood about 75cm tall and was just so perfectly in proportion. The trunk tapered gradually from base to tip, with a beautiful full crown of fronds. If I can track down a pic from another club member I will post it. Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to talk to the owner about how he had achieved it or how long it has taken.

Since then I have come across a few photo's in mainly penjing books of other palms as bonsai. Mainly Rhaphis palms, with the creeping stalk exposed & a number of trunks rising up to give the impression of a grove. I have a huge clump of Cane palm that i am tempted to split up and have a go with. With Graeme's notes to work from I dont think it will take too long to make something half reasonable out of it.

Cycads are not palms, but make stunning bonsai. Unlike palms, if you break out the crown of a cycad, many have the ability to shoot from the trunk creating multiple heads. It is a risky operation as its just as likely to kill the plant as to get it 'branching' I read an article by an asian grower of cycad bonsai that his success rates where about 75% but it had taken him 30yrs to get to that stage. The first ones he did all died, timing is crucial as is the overall health of the plant and many other factors I cant fully recall now. I have a few cycad pups that I am experimenting with in the hopes of creating a clump using several pups planted hard up against each other. Light competition will eventually make the trunks bend away from each other which I think could be quite effectively manipulated to direct the bends to a certain extent. Will let you all know in another 20yrs or so.

Matt

[Graeme]

Although I have never done it, I am led to believe the crown is not actually broken with the cycad Matt, but "damaged". Usually a cut is made into the trunk with a sharp knife. I think I remember (as I said, never done one) that when the cut is made you have to open the cut up a little to stop it healing over. The result of that is the plant will send out a shoot, obviously becomeing a branch or new leader. Only one cut can be made at a time. Will be back on here 24 August 2030 to check on your results.

[Istari]

wow, a very appreciated responce graeme. Indepth. Interesting. I know I learnt something!

Thanks mate,
Itsy.