TRUNK/TREE RATIO

[Bretts]

They are stunning pictures Mitchell did you take them yourself ?

I got about the same in ratio around the 1:25
Some of these trees captivate me and you have me thinking. Is it possible to create a composition with the same feeling of these trees? One thing I believe is you would have to be an exceptional artist to be able to accomplish this with bonsai.
I have not ever measured Literati which in itself I find interesting? (just looked) At a quick glance the first decent slender literati I found came to about the same ratio of 1:25. So I think it is possible for this ratio but as with literati I think it is at the difficult end of artistry to get the composition to work. Edit : Hey Chris look we are agreeing again

In the recent discussion specifically when I measured the Melaleuca broom that Pup posted I was thinking I would like to take a little of the top to dramatise the tree. This had me thinking that although trees are pretty close to what we have been taught in Ratio maybe just as in acting to emphasize the point a little extra of the top in bonsai dramatises the story a little. (hey Brett Your a friggen genius isn't that where we started ) Maybe but not as much as I thought before I started looking at this in the Design priniples thread!
So maybe the 1:4 fig becomes a 1:3.5 in bonsai. The 1:5 tree I showed will look better as a 1:4 tree as bonsai but I don't think there is much difference.
I am keen to put the 1:5 gum I showed in a bonsai pot virtual to see how it looks. I have always looked at Stevens avatar and considered why it does not look quite right! I think it is very similar to the 1:11 Gum I showed that I was informed is the habit of a Gum that has had trees around it cleared hence the tall structure.

Even these last trees you show have not convinced me (not sure you where trying ) That our natives are immune to the design principles we have been taught for exotics. But I am still thinking

norway_maple_tree.jpg

maple_tree.jpg

Red%20Maple%20Tree,%20Bernheim%20Forest%20Arboretum,%20Clerm.jpg

Here are some maples that are at about or over the 1:25 ratio I doubt you could make a maple of this shape work at this ratio no matter how good you where

[Bretts]

If the guys in Sydney had trees like this

momiji1a.jpeg

Would they offer them up for Salvatores 1:4 and under treatment in the pursuit of fashion?

Lets look at some winners from recent international online photo competition judged by exceptionally respected critics with their comments

6.6.jpeg

"Looks like a real tree. I love it. It would be nice if the two branches on left, the main one and the one near the top had a little more foliage on them so I didn’t see everything! Great choice of pot. Very natural! Killer!" - Guy Guidry

"A powerful, evocative, natural image marred by poor placement on a too-small slab. The lower slab/stand is wrong." - Andy Rutledge

12.jpeg

"This compositions powerful yet very natural look suggests a real landscape. That of the mountains. Superbly done." - Guy Guidry

"Nice material and styling (could do with some jin). Poor placement on the slab and the stand is inappropriate." - Andy Rutledge
http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/aobawards2009.php

What do you think Walter would have to say if he was discussing his trees and we told him they where out of vogue because they are over 1:4 That's when I would duck for cover!

Lets look at what Salvatoreactually said from Mela's notes

The first thing I notice about Australian bonsai is proportion. John Naka, the American-Japanese bonsai master, was a great teacher and he was generous with his knowledge. His two books, Bonsai Techniques #1 and Bonsai Techniques #2 are bibles of bonsai information.


John Naka’s guideline for proportion was 1:6. The tree should be no higher than 6 times the trunk width. If the diameter of the trunk is 10cm the tree height should be no higher than 60 cm. But bonsai is an art and art changes.

Now the proportion is changing, big bonsai are not popular and the styling trend is towards smaller trees; trees to 15cm, 15-20cm, 20-30cm 30-45 cm. This takes the ratio to 1:3 and 1:4. If the trunk is 10 cm the tree should be 30 or 40cm high, not 60 cm.

I can't agree more with the guy more that Australia needs to chop lots of their trees but It does not say that a higher ratio is unacceptable or that they must be this to be convincing only as has been stated that small Bonsai with low ratio are popular at the moment.

[Webos]

By my measurements, those last 3 trees are pretty close to 1:4 when measuring base at soil level. But the way I see it, Mathematics is about the last consideration when it comes to styling bonsai (apart from measuring up ferts and soil components). I dont get my ruler and protractor out when I am shaping a tree. To me, it's all about flow and balance. Art is in the eye of the beholder.

[Bretts]

If you are measuring at soil level on those three Japanese trees you would be measuring root spread to trunk ratio. The idea is to measure the widest part of the trunk above the root spread. Doing that we get 1:6 on these trees.

I am happy to consider myself a craftsman with a ruler at the moment.

Bonsai at its highest level is a fine art. But fine art begins with great craft. Westerners aspiring toward bonsai art excellence would do well to follow the craftsmanship found in excellent bonsai examples.

by Andy Rutledge

[dayne]

well said ant i hear you these gums look the exact same as a serrissa cutting in a pot because its a tree in nature dosnt mean its a bonsai thats my main problem with australian natives as bonsai people have it all wrong yes its a native yes its a tree copy that image of a gum put it in a pot sorry not bonsai thats like growing a juniper in the wild their a ground cover or shrub put that in a pot not bonsai im starting to realise stock isnt our biggest prolem its the miss use of natives thats holding us back and the idea that ive seen one like that in a park so its bonsai if i copy it
my challenge is make a tree like those gums pot it up show it here and try to tell a convincing story about it and see if its worthy of a world stage or proves salvatore wrong were talking bonsai not ugly trees in the wild

[anttal63]

Webos you got it my man! Dayne, Nailed it !!! At 28 you are leaps and bounds ahead, thinking the way you are.

Damn that scribbler cab sav was a good drop last night! Got me fired up again.

[GavinG]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

In the cat breeding world, Siamese cats used to be light-framed, wedge-faced, and sublimely intelligent. Then fashion took over, more points were awarded for more light-framed, pointy etc, and you ended up in some cases with sick, spindly, pointy-faced show winners that were Really Really Stupid.

If you are going to judge an art by numbers, this is the result you can end up with.

Of course, craft, technique and what your mates teach you, are all the essential building blocks, and the more you've absorbed them, the better your chances. But proportion, balance, harmony and dynamic intensity are all aesthetic decisions, they are what you see, and feel. Numbers and rules are just a way to get started.

Case in point: (Hope you don't mind Grant) Grant's Ash tree on another current thread - two stumpy little trunks, barely defined, emerging halfway up the tree - quite wrong by "the rules" but a wonderful, successful, explosively dynamic tree.

Damn the numbers. Make trees that speak to you. Stop measuring. If your eyes don't tell you what works, keep looking.

Gavin

Gavin

[Pup]

Salvatore Liporace was invited, to Australia to teach and guide and payed damn well. He was not paid to insult, which is what a lot have said he did.

Usually when you insult your employer you are warned. By the next day he was somewhat different, he still taught, Kimura has had a lot of people stay with him and claim they have studied under him.

If you look at Kimuras creation's some of which are awful, you will notice that the good ones do not always aspire to this ratio, as with a lot of tree's in the Masterpiece classification.

So what we should be doing is concentrating on what we can do, not saying my way or the highway. When you have trees that have been designed by one or two Masters.

Is the best around or do you have to improve it yourself, or take it along next time. To get another opinion, or can you do it.

My last I think because no matter how many times we say it. Australian Bonsai will never go forward if we KNOCK it every time a Foreigner, tells us our trees are this or that. When they have only seen tree's in the Metro areas.
The foreigners, in the Bonsai world i have been out with in our bush and seen our trees have made comments, on how wonderful and inspiring, they are and we should use more of them. I would love to work on them.
So if YOU have that tree that is inspiring show us do not just talk about it.
Pup

[anttal63]

Salvatore Liporace was invited, to Australia to teach and guide and payed damn well. He was not paid to insult, which is what a lot have said he did.

Usually when you insult your employer you are warned. By the next day he was somewhat different, he still taught, Kimura has had a lot of people stay with him and claim they have studied under him.

If you look at Kimuras creation's some of which are awful, you will notice that the good ones do not always aspire to this ratio, as with a lot of tree's in the Masterpiece classification.

So what we should be doing is concentrating on what we can do, not saying my way or the highway. When you have trees that have been designed by one or two Masters.

Is the best around or do you have to improve it yourself, or take it along next time. To get another opinion, or can you do it.

My last I think because no matter how many times we say it. Australian Bonsai will never go forward if we KNOCK it every time a Foreigner, tells us our trees are this or that. When they have only seen tree's in the Metro areas.
The foreigners, in the Bonsai world i have been out with in our bush and seen our trees have made comments, on how wonderful and inspiring, they are and we should use more of them. I would love to work on them.
So if YOU have that tree that is inspiring show us do not just talk about it.
Pup

Interesting analogy from someone who wasnt there and doesnt speak italian. pup???

[Pup]

Do you read all of the post or only what suits.
The first part of my post was to repeat what was said by those that were there on Saturday, which by your own admission you were like me, not there.

Then I said he was on Sunday teaching instead of praising himself. As again was pointed out by those that were there on both days.

I have said and will say again, always attend any workshops demonstrations, that you can, that way you can learn even if it is a mistake you have learnt something.

Not speaking Italian has nothing to do with it. I do not speak Japanese but I learn from them that do.

[MattA]

Interesting analogy from someone who wasnt there and doesnt speak italian. pup???

Antonio, even if you speak Italian, things can get lost in translation, because of dialect amongst many other reasons... eg the second atomic bomb was dropped on Japan due to an incorreect translation of just 1 word. Not because the translator didnt know the language but had failed to translate the intent, that slip completely altered the translation and resulted in many thousands more suffering.

Matt

[Chris]

I love my little trees

[Grant Bowie]

Here's my 2 cents worth.

In the cat breeding world, Siamese cats used to be light-framed, wedge-faced, and sublimely intelligent. Then fashion took over, more points were awarded for more light-framed, pointy etc, and you ended up in some cases with sick, spindly, pointy-faced show winners that were Really Really Stupid.

If you are going to judge an art by numbers, this is the result you can end up with.

Of course, craft, technique and what your mates teach you, are all the essential building blocks, and the more you've absorbed them, the better your chances. But proportion, balance, harmony and dynamic intensity are all aesthetic decisions, they are what you see, and feel. Numbers and rules are just a way to get started.

Case in point: (Hope you don't mind Grant) Grant's Ash tree on another current thread - two stumpy little trunks, barely defined, emerging halfway up the tree - quite wrong by "the rules" but a wonderful, successful, explosively dynamic tree.

Damn the numbers. Make trees that speak to you. Stop measuring. If your eyes don't tell you what works, keep looking.

Gavin

Gavin

You certainly need to be guided by instinct eventually. All the guidelines in the world are only that; guidelines.

And no I don't mind people commenting on my trees.

Grant

[ozzy]

I love my little trees

No they are all the wrong ratio and must be destroyed

[Pup]

I love my little trees

No they are all the wrong ratio and must be destroyed

I got rid of mine this morning as we needed the heat. I was reminded of the NO play of the Samurai warrior!!