ID this pest please Murraya + Trident Maple curl

[63pmp]

HI Shane,

It’s good to hear that your pH is OK;, that knocks out a whole host of problems. However, there is still a list to work through, and most depend upon your honesty regarding your horticultural practices.

Here is a list of what I think are the main culprits, not necessarily in order of likelihood, but with my rating of likelihood from what you have told me.

1. Overfeeding with nitrogen in spring led to the over development of foliage at detriment to roots. Eventually the demand for calcium for new growth was beyond ability of roots to supply, leading to deficiency symptoms. VERY LIKELY
2. Insufficient calcium in fertilizer, water and or potting mix. VERY LIKELY
3. Ammonium toxicity due to cool weather, over caste conditions, affected calcium uptake and movement in xylem leading to deficiencies and poor leaf structure, hot weather simply burnt off weak leaves. NOT SO LIKELY
4. Oxygen deficiency in roots due to overwatering. POSSIBLE
5. Salinity from fertilizers/irrigation water damaging root tips, especially chloride and sodium ion. POSSIBLE
6. Combination of two or more of the above points. VERY LIKELY
7. Fungal infection of roots POSSIBLE
8. Something we haven't thought of.

So what are the solutions to your problems? This is answered in respect to each of the above points

1 Stop fertilizing and add gypsum at a rate of 3-4 teaspoons per 200mm pot.
2 Add gypsum to affected trees at a rate of 3-4 teaspoons per 200mm pot.
3 Stop fertilizing with Urea/ammonium based fertilizers in wet weather and add gypsum at the above rate and water in; try and leach as much ammonium and urea from soils as possible. Use Calcium nitrate for this if you have it, or gypsum will do (but slower).
4 Remove excess water from pots by tilting or inserting wick into drainage holes. Check that water is not pooling between pots and benches. Tridents send most of their roots to the bottom of the pot, many plastic pots have holes in the bottom, which sits on the bench, water will then cling to the base of the pot and keep the roots wet. Repot if needed.

(Research the effects of low oxygen soil levels, many of the symptoms are similar to calcium deficiency simply because it stops caclium uptake, but leaf curling, wilting and reduced growth are also very typical symptoms, as are small black dots about edes of leaves due to manganese toxicity, and yellowing of older leaves due to magnesium deficiency)

5 Check solution strengths of fertilizer solutions and water; get EC’s done.
6 Any one of these problems may not be significant on their own to cause symptoms, but two or more would be enough to cause symptoms. eg borderline chloride may not cause leaf scorch, but combined with low calcium due to presence of ammonium it will cause leaf burn as transpiration increases with warm weather.
7 Fungus, changing growing conditions so that they are perfect for plant growth may allow plants to recover, other than that its pay for pathology testing to get specific products to deal with it, or spray random products until plants improves. My experience with tridents suggests they are very resistant to fungal diseases. But it remains a possibility if nothing else works for your plants.
8 Keep reading and asking questions, someone may know. There are lot of strange combinations which cause problems, eg high Phosphorus interferes with Zn uptake, causing Zn deficiency in plants.

Regarding Nitrogen levels for fertilizing, I haven’t yet found the appropriate Nitrogen content in fertilizers for maples, I think Maples are very efficient at gathering N, and not very efficient at gathering Calcium. I think it is more than likely that many of these late-spring, early-summer, maple leaf problems are due to an imbalance between N nutrition and calcium. Just my theory, which I’ll test next year. Certainly they do not need feeding before the first three sets of leaves have hardened off.

For now I would recommend reducing your fertilizer to one quarter recommended strength, apply gypsum to all affected pots, and watch and wait. I wouldn’t use seasol or any of their products simply because they do not state what their contents are. And at the risk of starting a brawl, there is no evidence that seaweed extracts provide any benefit to plants. Obviously they aren't working for yours.

Good luck with it and let us know what you decide to do and how your trees recover with your treatment.


Paul

[shanemartin]

First of all Paul, let me admit right up front to seriously lack the required horticultural and scientific knowledge to compete with the likes of yourself and many others on this forum.... I can only hope to learn a fraction of this combined knowledge one step at a time. I'm an artist by nature not an academic unfortunately, so please be patient with me, and forgiving to some degree, in my horticultural shortcomings. It does however sound like I have fluked the health of the trees I have managed to keep alive for over 20 some years, rather than recording every detail and knowing horticultural practices inside and out. I guess if I was to be like that, I may have sought a career at the CSIRO instead of professional photography, but you can't fight who you are. I admire people such as yourself, not only their knowledge, but also for their willingness to share it with people like me and others who maybe should have studied more at school. So thanks again

I've always grown my bonsai by my own KISS method, with the emphasis on stupid. I simply didn't have the time for complicating things. 'Bought' soil mixes, a few types of well known slow release fertilisers and some pest and bug sprays. that's pretty much it. It is only now that I have way more free time on my hands and the discovery of these types of forums, that my hunger for more detailed knowledge on growing healthier bonsai has come about. The consequence of this has been an overwhelming amount of "foreign" tech talk, which for me has been difficult to digest to say the least. You requested my honesty!

OK.... that being said, after reading the possible cause and solutions in your post, I have looked at a couple of things already and can say this...

1. I believe when potting these trees up, after lifting from the ground towards the end of winter, the soil mix (bulk commercial grade potting mix: no added fertiliser) was sitting in my box trailer, and on reflection was already moist due to an overnight shower, and could have been too moist to properly fit between the finer root system, creating bad oxygen conditions from the word go.
Plus, I have possibly been guilty of overwatering to a degree, as I was scared to let them dry out.
I suspect the drainage has also been affected to some degree by starting with over moist soil.
Should I repot these now into a more open mix?

2. I haven't used Seasol for ages, but read numerous posts on the benefits of soaking newly lifted trees in the stuff for up to 24hrs before potting, to lessen transplant shock and encourage root growth...... and followed up with fortnightly applications.... so I did this for the first time ever, thinking I was following proven theories.

3. All my large trees got 1 handful of D.L. (no more) at the start of spring..... Something i've done for years, so I wouldn't have thought I was over doing it, however I have not been as heavy handed with the Liquid ferts before, so maybe this was too much.

4. 2 of the 4 pots have been pooling water underneath..... I've corrected this by tilting one and raising the other.

The forthcoming growth was strong and heathy, so I thought my regime with these trees was in order....

As I said in an earlier post, the trees growth all looked normal until 3 weeks ago, when I gave them all a light prune. At the same time we got hit with 2 weeks of non stop dry northerly winds. Due to a co-insiding back injury, I was not able to move these heavy trees to shelter from the wind.

This may have no bearing on the problem and be totally coincidental, but I'm just trying to give you all the facts as I know it.

btw....I have had 2 tridents that were badly affected with this issue a couple of years ago, and after following the same feeding program as listed above, these 2 trees have never looked healthier, both with no sign of the problem. They have not been repotted or their situation changed in any way other than this feed program. I figured with the more rigorous feeding program, the trees were healthier this year, and that they had grown out of the problem. Similar statements were posted here by other growers, so I started to think this was all it came down to? Healthier trees were less inclined to be affected.???

So Paul for now I will do as you suggest, and adjust the feed program..... add the gypsum, and see how we go. I have also moved the affected trees to get a "few" hours more sun exposure than they've been getting to date. I'm sure they weren't getting quite enough.

I will keep you posted on the progress as it comes to hand.

thanks once again.

[63pmp]

Hi Shane

I only started getting these problems when I started to use chemical fertilisers, and optimising growth. Before then I fertilised every two weeeks with fish emulsion. However I've been on a steep learning curve since then and really appreciate the education I have been fortunate to obtain so that I can understand what is going on. If you have any problems with the tech talk let me know andI'll try and translate as best as possible. I also think a lot of lurkers check out these kinds of threads, whihch might be good, or not, its rare that these kind of threads occur, so it might be interesting to other folk.

Strange irony, but I was accepted to Alexander Mackie to do photography after year 12, but didn't think I could handle art school and did something else instead.

About your problem, I don't think your doing anything wrong, I think the more you push plants do develop, the more likelihood of problems occuring. Plants in pots getting little fertiliser seem to be fairly happy most of the time, they don't grow fast. It's when I try to accelerate growth that I run into problems, bit like an elite athlete, always struggling with injuries because of the high physical demand. So don't beat yourself up about it, it was bound to happen sooner or later. This year I got hit with high pH's, never happend before, but there you go, it happens, you just have to go along with it.

About your bulk commercial potting mix, did you sieve it? What are its components?

The more I hear the more I think calcium deficiency mixed in with a bit of low oxygen levels in the mix. Most commercial potting mixes have adeqaute calcium for about 3 months, but this depends on type of fertiliser you applied and frequency of watering. So it might not make it to 2 months before calcium becomes deficicent. Ammonium quickly leaches calcium from a potting mix, and plants need quite a lot of calcium, so they are sucking it up as well.

could have been too moist to properly fit between the finer root system,

This creates air pockets, i don't know if roots particularly like large air pockets or not, but it won't cause low oxygen conditions. Also leaving it to get wet won't really affect it other than it becomes oxygen deficient and nitrates convert to ammonium and then eventually worse things happen with sulphates. So its best if kept dry, but not a problem if it gets wet. The most important thing you can do is seive it to remove fines before using it.

2 of the 4 pots have been pooling water underneath..... I've corrected this by tilting one and raising the other

Yes, this is very important.

Should I repot these now into a more open mix?

Not if you can help it. Chances are they will grow out of the problem. Manage moisture content by putting shade (such as thin wooden boards) or mulch on top of the pot, this will stop the top from drying out excessively while you wait for the bottom of the pot to dry out. Water only when start to see early signs of wilting, I call them soft tips, just as they start to nod over, In a short while you will be able to pick when they really need water. On really hot days put them in the shade. Keep them out of any rain (unless you want to leach salts out of the soil) or throw a drape over them so they don't get wet. A wick in one of the bottom holes can help, make it about 2 feet long and let it dangle to the ground. I use nylon cord, but wool works well also.

"The forthcoming growth was strong and heathy, so I thought my regime with these trees was in order"

Yes, this is what happens when using too much nitrogen, trees look great, but foliage outgrows the roots, then the heat hits and the roots cannot support the foliage.

I missed what the fertiliser was, was it Powerfeed? (its OK to use brand names, that way we are on the same page)

read numerous posts on the benefits of soaking newly lifted trees in the stuff for up to 24hrs before potting

It wouldn't cause the problems you have now. The topic of seasol causes more heated arguments then anything.

however I have not been as heavy handed with the Liquid ferts before, so maybe this was too much

What type, how much, and how often? Osmocote is OK, but can cause leaf tip burn, and it doesn't have any calcium.

DL is OK, but high in ammonium and will raise the pH, as it has lime in it. Don't ever buy a wet bag, you can smell the ammonia without even opening it. It does have calcium in it, so thats something.

and after following the same feeding program as listed above, these 2 trees have never looked healthier, both with no sign of the problem

This is pretty typical with nutrient issues, and especially with ammonium problems as it is such a variable compound, being affected by fertiliser, environmental conditions, watering, potting mix, plant species. Often plants will grow out of ammonium issues, however you can lose a good part of the growing season, or autumn colors etc. And it will weaken a plant so it is more susceptable to blights and fungal attacks. And it looks ugly. And sometimes the plants don't grow out of it and die instead. With any plant health issue it's always wise to do a quick pH if something looks ill, then look at waterlogging issues, and then fertilisers.

This stuff is quite complex and it takes me ages to write it out, so often I just assume you know something and power on, rather then fully explain, so if you don't follow along with something then ask a question, I'll try and answer (that goes the same for all the lurkers out there).

Hope this helps

Paul

[Bretts]

Some pretty good advice there Paul.

Shane i dont think the tridents have a pest issue. I believe it might be fungal. Have a look at several previous post by Bretts about this issue.

Matthew what about the tiny white crawlies I found then? I've read everything Bretts and others have written in the 6 pages of discussion on this forum.... Nothing seems conclusive ..... well to me at least.... or am i missing something??
Back to the drawing board I spose.

Pathology test stated fungus, treatment the pathology test recommended (Bravo) showed dramatic results in fixing the problem. Don't know what you expect but that is conclusive enough for me.

Hi Brett, Is there any chance we could get some details from the pathology report that you had done?

MSDS for Yates Bravo here: https://msds.orica.com/pdf/shess-en-cds- ... 020761.pdf
Wikipedia info for the active ingredient: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorothalonil

Cheers,
Mojo

The detials are in the first post in my thread about this issue linked above. If the name of the Fungus was given in the report it is now lost

Mela managed to get a pathology test done that found a fungus and recommended treatment with Yates BRAVO - active constituent "500g/litre chlorothalonil. It was a pity that a name was not given to the fungus but It's probably something like Anthracnose or Phyllosticta and Septoria a combination of any or something similar.

Shane i dont think the tridents have a pest issue. I believe it might be fungal. Have a look at several previous post by Bretts about this issue.

Matthew what about the tiny white crawlies I found then? I've read everything Bretts and others have written in the 6 pages of discussion on this forum.... Nothing seems conclusive ..... well to me at least.... or am i missing something??
Back to the drawing board I spose.

Pathology test stated fungus, treatment the pathology test recommended (Bravo) showed dramatic results in fixing the problem. Don't know what you expect but that is conclusive enough for me.

See here for a condensed version of what I have found on this.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3927&p=101954&hili ... us#p101954

I would guess the white crawlies are something different. I have some tridents with similar looking "eaten foliage" It has not worried me much as it is on stock trees and I was putting it down to thrips or something that the damage is already done.

But pics 3 and 4 look exactly like the fungus to me.

First of all Bretts let me say my reference to you was in no way meant to infer "your" findings were inconclusive, and if that's how you read it, then i apologise. What I was trying to say was.... there seemed to be so many ideas and causes and possible this and possible that.... it just seemed to go nowhere for me, and as I said in my submission, "Maybe I missed something" which I obviously did, being the "conclusive" pathology testing and recommended Bravo treatment. I will certainly give this a try tomorrow. However the leaves in pics 3 & 4 look very different from each other to my eye at least?? You sure it's the same thing?
Well I hopefully I'll to get to the bottom of this soon and will be able to post some positive results in the coming months. How do you guys know all this stuff!!!!
BTW Bretts, what are your thoughts on the Ammonium toxicity theory in the above post?
cheers mate

Hi Shane
No worries about the inference. I was just being blunt as there IS so many ideas being thrown around here which is common when it comes to disease diagnosis on plant forums.
But the facts in this matter are pretty simple.
This issue has gone to a professional botanical garden pathology test with the result being fungus treat with Bravo. This treatment shows the expected result.
As with any disease or pest the health and vigor of the plant can determine the amount of infestation (if any) but even the healthiest trees can still be affected in many cases.
This Fungus can be a particularly nasty one if the tree is stressed. What we do in bonsai by trimming the roots and or shoots stresses a tree. What a trident can normally bounce back from is now in serious trouble when this fungus is present.
Roots and leaves are the batteries that give the tree the power to fight this fungus. Any growth no matter how ugly is your friend.
People grow bonsai in many different ways. They keep it simple and get excellent results like Walter Pall or they get very technical and get excellent results like Jerry Meislik. Their are many ways to skin a cat.
I tend to gravitate towards Walter Pall's KISS principle and it is working well for me with many healthy vigorous trees. But I have been known to head off on various tangents where people suggest I am thinking too much so I will not knock those who take a much more complicated path.
The choice is yours but I will say it is best to stay with how you feel comfortable in caring for your trees. When the trees are in this state it is no time for experimenting with them. Only do what you know is healthy care.

recommended Bravo treatment. I will certainly give this a try tomorrow. However the leaves in pics 3 & 4 look very different from each other to my eye at least?? You sure it's the same thing?

I am being as brief as possible as this is my one day off before heading back out of town for work again. Bravo is pretty toxic and hard to get. Mancozeb is less toxic and easier to get. It is often recommended for fungal issues when ever bravo is so although I have not tried it I reckon it is worth a try.
The pictures in 3 and 4 yes do look quite different but if you look closely at the tree you will also see some similarities in the dead leaf tissue (althouggh the leaves are almost non existant) . The one with mainly stalk and no leaf is what I believe to be the progression of the disease from the damaged leaves.
Good luck

[shanemartin]

Thanks Brett
I have Mancozeb, soo I'll give it a go....

[63pmp]

I was just being blunt as there IS so many ideas being thrown around here which is common when it comes to disease diagnosis on plant forums.

There are many ideas because the symptoms presented are quite general and can be caused by many different growing conditions.

This issue has gone to a professional botanical garden pathology test with the result being fungus treat with Bravo. This treatment shows the expected result

Your ISSUE has gone to a laboratory, that doesn't make it a universal condition of every trident maple with damaged leaves. It makes it a possible factor, one which is considered among many possibilities. It is almost impossible to diagnose anything from shaky pitures on the internet, let alone confirm it's some type of fungus.

As explained it is important to work through a process of illimination, not just gun for a diagnosis.

It would be wonderful if you could name your fungus, Brett. That way we can all learn what it actually is and how it latches onto plants. That would be a handy contribution.


Paul

[Bretts]

Paul are you not going by the same pictures in your diagnosis

Yes the infallible process would be to get a pathology report for each and every tree that shows these symptoms. But that is hardly viable with each diagnosis costing hundreds of dollars.

This issue has shown itself for several years now and the symptoms are very recognisable even in shaky pictures which these are not

[63pmp]

Brett,

I am not relying on the photos to diagnose, I am systematically looking at a number of possibilites, starting with pH, waterlogging (or low soil xygen levels), nutrition and then maybe fungal .

I put fungal problems on the end of the list as the probablity that this is the problem is low.

In fact, leaves produce similar symptoms for a host of problems and to simply assume a burnt leaf on a trident maple is a fungal problem is naive.

I know you like to think growing plants in pots is easy, however, its not. This is because plants need some 16 elements to grow properly, if only one is missing then the plant will eventually die, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but they cannot survive without those 16 elements. Providing them in the correct proportions is not easy as each tree species has specific needs. An excess, or deficiency, of one or more of these elements produces the vast amount of plant problems we see in bonsia, and increases a plants susceptibility to a bacterial or fungal disease. Nutritional errors lead to diseases. It amazng at what plants cope with regarding nutrition, but there are limits.

The point I am trying to make, is that there needs to be a sytematic approach to determining the nutritional error at the heart of the problem. Not just doggardly insisting it's a fungus, which you cannot name, or refuse to name for what ever reason.

If you read my posts properly you might be able to see that I am applying a systematic approach to solving the problem.

Paul

[Jow]

Hi Paul,

To change the direction slightly; Is a trace mineral formula sufficent for correcting most common deficiency problems?

[Bretts]

by Brett
Pathology test stated fungus, treatment the pathology test recommended (Bravo) showed dramatic results in fixing the problem. Don't know what you expect but that is conclusive enough for me.

If that is niave then dip me in green!

Good free drianing substrate any decent fertiliser that has been put together by a chemist with a degree and bobs ya uncle easy peasy
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/ ... glish.html

[63pmp]

Brettg

How do you define a free draining substrate and a decent fertilizer?

I have a degree in chemistry, I studied agricultural chemistry and soil science and achieved a degree with honors. Why is my education not relevant?

Paul

[63pmp]

Is a trace mineral formula sufficent for correcting most common deficiency problems?

Yes, for trace mineral deficiencies only, depending on what else is in it, it may not be so good for the major elements.

Trace nutrients need to be provided in a fairly narrow band as they can also cause toxicities if supplied in too high a concentration. But yes, they are fine for providing trace elements. I used to use the Yates product, and had no problems with it.

Calcium and magnesium are the major nutrients often left out of fertiliser preparations, this is beause they form insoluble compounds with phosphate. Also, calcium rarely forms deficiencies in healthy ground soils. The general run of a mill fertiliser is designed for ground growing plants, not for bonsai pots; and NPK are the usual depleting elements in ground soils.

All fertilizers have more than enough N, P & K, but fall short on calcium and magnesium. The problem with qouting Mr Pall is that he has sufficient Ca and Mg in his irrigation water, you can apply fertilisers like he suggests if you have soils with high air filled porosity and flush them with copious water. More than likely his plants are slightly underfed, as he only feeds them every 2 week, nutrients like, phosphorus, potassium, urea and nitrate are easily leached from pots, they would be gone inside of a week with heavy frequent watering. He admits his water is very hard, so he will have sufficient calcium & magnesium in his irrigation water for healthy plant growth; the same for Mr Walston, who is often qouted as just using whatever off the shelf. If you don't have these elements in your irrigation water, or something is causing problems with the root tips, like low oxygen levels due to water pooling, then you can get a calcium deficiency occuring. Calcium is very important for growing tips (meristems) and normal leaf development. Sorry about the rant, but I feel Mr Pall has been rather negligent with his advice.

Regards

Paul

[Jow]

So would a blood and bone meal provide calcium? I am perhaps stupidly assuming that the calcium from the bones will be transfered to the plants.

[Bretts]

How about it Walter have you seen this substrate/fertiliser/watering regime you suggest used in climates that get egg cooking Summers of 113 deg F and it is still Ok for all species including Hornbeams?

Well I use it for ALL trees including eg azaleas. My azaleas look VERY good even when I water them with water that has the highest possible amount of calcium. This is radically against any book-wisdom. But everybody is invited to come and see for themselves. I use it for several hundred hornbeams with best results. I use it for trees which cost much more than 10,000 euro.
I know that this method is used around the globe in all climates. I know that folks use it in southern California and Florida. There they have to water several times per day often.
I believe that one has to INCREASE the amout of feeding considerably the more often one waters. With well draining substrate most of the feed is washed out soon. So if you water several times per day you must feed EVERY day I believe. I must admit that I don't have personal direct experience ijn very hot and dry climate though.

[Mojo Moyogi]

I have a degree in chemistry, I studied agricultural chemistry and soil science and achieved a degree with honors. Why is my education not relevant?

Paul

Face it Paul, If it were him speaking, it would be relevant. It's a pattern of behaviour that is not new: Somebody starts a thread, asks for help, somebody else makes it about them. Someone else has valuable input, someone disagrees. Someone points out some truths, a tantrum is had, a moderator closes the thread.

Pity the poor bloke who wanted some help with his trees.



Mojo