Raising maples for root stock.

[Luke308]

Squiz you have a point. I was asking for opinions on whether putting them in the freezer would be of any benefit to mimic UKs winter. Anyway, I have enough seeds that I might try some in the fridge, some only in the freezer, and some from fridge to freezer to fridge again. It is only with experimentation and experience that we can learn from each other. Here in Adelaide we don't get cold enough winters to stratify seeds outside that are not from local trees.

Have a read of the link I posted in my last thread, as that guy has been propagating maple, black pine, & white pine with great success for years with techniques past down through his family. Clearly you can see his success in his photos.

VS is that a Lamb of God t-shirt you have on in the picture with your seeds from the UK?

[Luke308]

A question for those who have successfully stratified and germinated Acer seeds before-

When should I be putting them in the fridge? All germination notes that came with my seeds from various suppliers say from 60-90 days would be adequate for time in the fridge. I have searched the net and found this site http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/seeds/p ... i-info.htm which has info for each species and length of time required. It states some can take as little as 12 weeks, but most maples require 20 weeks, whereas Acer Griseum requires 50 weeks!!! I find this hard to believe as it states Acer Ginnala takes 34 weeks, and I have successfully germinated these with only 8wks stratification, and I also have some in seed trays outside at the moment for natural stratification and one has sprouted already. They have only been out there for 6wks or so. I am guessing this site refers to northern hemisphere climates as it is a UK site. However, majority of my seeds came from the UK, so when should I begin the stratifying process? I am happy to start now, but I am worried if they sprout to early, and require planting out into seed trays they will not survive the cool temperatures of winter. I am officially confused Any help from someone who has successfully been down this road before would be great

[Andrew F]

All were thrown in the fridge today, Ken sent me over a hundred seeds so i bagged some up in pure sand, pure coco peat, and a few different % mixes. Thanks everyone for their contribution.


Missus wasnt happy about a whole shelf being taken up by "Bonsai sh*t" as she roughly described it

[Andrew F]

VS is that a Lamb of God t-shirt you have on in the picture with your seeds from the UK?

Hahahahaha no. Its this:



Thanks for your help mate

[squizzy]

vs my wife has told me I have to have a bonsai sh%t sale and get rid of all this crap out of the backyard.

I sneak a new one in every so often and she doesnt notice for a week or two.

[siddhar]

A question for those who have successfully stratified and germinated Acer seeds before-

When should I be putting them in the fridge? All germination notes that came with my seeds from various suppliers say from 60-90 days would be adequate for time in the fridge. I have searched the net and found this site http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/seeds/p ... i-info.htm which has info for each species and length of time required. It states some can take as little as 12 weeks, but most maples require 20 weeks, whereas Acer Griseum requires 50 weeks!!! I find this hard to believe as it states Acer Ginnala takes 34 weeks, and I have successfully germinated these with only 8wks stratification, and I also have some in seed trays outside at the moment for natural stratification and one has sprouted already. They have only been out there for 6wks or so. I am guessing this site refers to northern hemisphere climates as it is a UK site. However, majority of my seeds came from the UK, so when should I begin the stratifying process? I am happy to start now, but I am worried if they sprout to early, and require planting out into seed trays they will not survive the cool temperatures of winter. I am officially confused Any help from someone who has successfully been down this road before would be great

I tried growing trees from seed for a years and found that for all of the effort involved in doing this, I found I was better off buying seedlings for a couple of bucks, throwing them in the ground and having something very good to work with within a 2-5 year period. Some trees I've had ground growing for 3 years have some pretty amazing trunks already. The seed grown trees are still doing well, but the results are very slow. It all depends on the species of tree I guess, but from seed, expect an investment of 5-10 years. Sorry, I haven't actually helped as such, just thought I'd commend you for going down the "Growing trees from seed" approach.

[Andrew F]

vs my wife has told me I have to have a bonsai sh%t sale and get rid of all this crap out of the backyard.

I sneak a new one in every so often and she doesnt notice for a week or two.

Lol Same boat.

I have to turn the pile of treated pine into a bench this weekend or into a tree house coz if the bench doesnt get built im sleeping outside.

[Luke308]

I have just translated from french the following taken from http://www.lotus-bonsai.com which is posted by giangus whom started this thread http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8531 ... from-seeds

"The selected seeds for growing bonsai (erroneously called "bonsai seeds") are often expensive and their quantity is not measured in grams but in number of seeds. Thus, control of seedlings is important to optimize the rate of seed germination.

The conifer genus Pinus are often difficult to propagate by cuttings. Apart from layering and tissue culture, seeding is a means which allows for large amounts of seedlings. Seed germination depends on several factors including the quality of harvested seed (reference year) and seeding method (average handling and adequate).

The technique involves seeding a long struggle against micro-organisms (bacteria and fungi) that cause seed rot they sprout and destroy seedlings (melting semi) thus preventing their development.

The hygiene requirements


1 / Wash the seeds in diluted bleach (1 part bleach to 9 parts water) for 2-4 min.
2 / Rinse with cold water several times and drain the seeds before soaking in alcohol 70% (pharmacy) for 5-10 sec.
3 / Soak seeds in water at pH ~ 4.0 to 5.0 (0.5 l of tap water + white vinegar 6 ml) for 1 min. by shaking the cup.
4 / Drain and put the seeds to stratify, or in wet sand (always with water at pH ~ 4.0 to 5.0 prepared above) and sterile (heated in the microwave for 3 to 5 minutes) with powdered charcoal (antiseptic role) when you do not want to use a fungicide.
5 / Place the seeds in a bag "zip" by driving all the air from the bag to create a vacuum.

At this stage, the seeds are ready to be stratified in the refrigerator. After many years of culture, sterile sand mixed with charcoal or peat moss is the material that I work best (relative to wet paper or peat). Spores of fungi are constantly in the air, the steps described above will keep the middle of stratification in equilibrium and thus limit the damage caused by fungi.

Seedbed preparation:

The role of the substrate is sowing the seeds to rehydrate and maintain adequate warmth for seed emergence. Many combinations exist for the preparation of the substrate (peat, sand, perlite, peat moss, akadama ...). Every year, I use the mixture, peat-charcoal '(heated in the microwave 5-8min) which gives me correct results. Vermiculite tends to harbor fungi; sand and compact the mixture akadama is essential. The purpose of the preparation is to have a well ventilated, damp, especially in equilibrium with the population of micro-organisms as it is, of course, impossible to have a sterile substrate outside laboratory conditions.
The mixture is moistened seed final with water at pH ~ 4.0 to 5.0. It then added tea with garlic (2 or 3 cloves garlic minced + 250cl of water in an airtight jar for 24) which is very effective against damping-off in seedlings of Pinus.


The choice of means of seeding:

It is important to use means of sowing (pots, dimpled plates, bowls) large and deep to prevent drying of the substrate. I use horticultural dimpled plates (3 cm in diameter and 5cm deep) to 3 seeds per cell and 7x7 pans. Thus, if infected, it is easy to remove topics immediately. Dimpled plates are covered by a sheet of film (plastic bag). With normal light and bottom heat, germination was seen after 10 days for pine (P. densiflora, P. thunbergii, P. parvifolia ...)

Note: you have to watch the seedlings especially regarding the drying of the substrate which is common and to aerate the entire plantation.

Care post-germination

Most germinated Pinus are systematically affected by damping off (rotting observed at a level of the neck) although all preventive measures were taken (disinfected seed and substrate, humidity control ...). To curb this scourge, we keep the substrate slightly moist and adding 4 or 5 drops of tea with garlic per day per well during the first 6 weeks.

Maples (Acer palmatum) are webbed or maple species in the lower floor of the temperate forests of northern China, Japan and Korea. The maples are not acidophilic plants, but they tolerate soil pH 5.6 to pH 7.0. By cons, they do not support the alkaline soil because they are struggling to secure the presence of iron carbonate. This causes chlorosis in the foliage.

Maple webbed can be multiplied by seeds, cuttings, layering ...


Propagation by seed is prepared from late November with a stratification between 2 and 4 months (depending on the quality and condition of seed conservation). When germination was observed in the cold, we can take the seeds stratified and sown in trays or pots in a substrate of 2/3 peat and 1/3 crushed charcoal.

Transplanting in the cups, is made in late May in a draining substrate composed of two thirds of heathland and third charcoal crushed when the seedlings have two more pairs of leaves.

Before transplanting, it is necessary to fertilize young trees with an organic fertilizer high in nitrogen.

At the end of summer, under the right conditions for development and care, young maples are over 40cm with a base of more than 0.3 cm. In winter, the seedlings are protected from freezing. To March of the year after, maples will be planted in the ground to accelerate growth.

In 4 or 5 years of outdoor cultivation, the tree measures more than 2m in height for a base 1 to 2 cm.

[shibui]

Luke,
There has been some work showing that seed from different areas has different dormancy. Sometimes dormancy of seed is different in different years because of different weather conditions while it formed so no wonder the literature is confusing.

A few weeks longer should not hurt seed but a bit less might make a difference. If stratifying in the fridge I'd put them in now. Acer seed should not sprout in fridge temps so it won't hurt to give them a bit longer.

50 weeks is nearly a year. Where would seed be stratified in nature for an entire year???? so how would it evolve this sort of dormancy? The way I see it we try to mimic nature - stratify for a typical winter period - 8-12 weeks. Some will require less but the longer period should not hurt.

[Luke308]

Luke,
There has been some work showing that seed from different areas has different dormancy. Sometimes dormancy of seed is different in different years because of different weather conditions while it formed so no wonder the literature is confusing.

A few weeks longer should not hurt seed but a bit less might make a difference. If stratifying in the fridge I'd put them in now. Acer seed should not sprout in fridge temps so it won't hurt to give them a bit longer.

50 weeks is nearly a year. Where would seed be stratified in nature for an entire year???? so how would it evolve this sort of dormancy? The way I see it we try to mimic nature - stratify for a typical winter period - 8-12 weeks. Some will require less but the longer period should not hurt.

Thanks, you have certainly made sense. I thought 50 weeks seemed unrealistic. I have just finished preparing seeds and put them in the fridge tonight. I still have some more soaking (I didn't have enough glasses) which will join the others in the fridge tomorrow. I have photographed the whole shebang so I will post a thread documenting the process and possible success rates.

[Phoenix238]

50 weeks is nearly a year. Where would seed be stratified in nature for an entire year????

Antarctica?

[Luke308]

I have photographed the whole shebang so I will post a thread documenting the process and possible success rates.

I forgot to add the link here, so here it is...... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11622

[Andrew F]

BINGO!

Woke up to this:



And reacted like this:

http://youtu.be/xos2MnVxe-c

[shibui]

Thats great. Now you need to get them potted up and into good light before they get too leggy.

[Andrew F]

Thats great. Now you need to get them potted up and into good light before they get too leggy.

Done, Thank you Shibui.

Whether or not i get any variety out of these, Im happy that i managed to get this far.