I Need advice for this elm

[desdesign]

Firstly Thank you Lisa
I return to this from because of you. Im so sorry to say but most of people just advice chop it or air layer.
magpie thank you for your virt mate
I agree to you guys to be honest If I want a smaller tree I would buy a smaller tree but I want something large in my collection thats why I took this one.
There is so many thing is waiting on this tree but first thing is first I just reduc e branch sizes. still lots of work waiting but at least its a beginning.

in couple of month I will watch how tree will respond.

maybe I can add extra branch to right to get balance
what do you think ?

IMG_1194.JPG

[Andrew Legg]

I've been waiting to see if anyone came up with any advice except chopping and/or cutting. Except for Ken, no-one said anything really constructive.
OK, here we have a tree on which the previous owner has done a good job for many years. It has good movement and beautiful, furrowed, aged bark, which is worth a ton in bonsai art. Yet what do some people here say? Reduce a tree with good movement to get a small tree with good movement (is it really?? pretty coarse, with that strong bend, imo) and with a big wound, which won't heal for the next 10 years. Never mind the beautiful bark.
Indeed, work needs to be done to get taper. The tree looks like it has been neglected for a couple of years, hence the dense branching around the apex. Don't forget that elms are strongly apically dominant, which always results in a clustering of branches up top, if the tree isn't properly pruned, and therefore in a thickening of the trunk at that spot. Sometimes it even ends up as an inverted taper. Luckily, this doesn't appear to be the case here. Like Ken, I would advise creating a new apex by choosing a top branch, but I would go a little higher and choose a branch from the cluster, so as to keep part of the upper curve. In other words, Des, I agree with your first virtual. There's nothing wrong in continuing the job done by the previous owner, it means solid bonsai work which will give you a beautiful, unblemished tree in 2 - 3 years' time.
It will also do justice to the earlier work, and that is a bonsai ideal. Passing trees on through the generations should always be a goal. Just think of the masterly bonsai created by Australian bonsai artists who have passed away, and which are now cared for by younger artists.

BEFORE YOU CHOP AND CUT, THINK!

Lisa

Hey Lisa,

Isn't it wonderful that we all have different tastes! I see a small tree, you see a bigger one. I like blue, you like red. If that tree were mine, I'd layer it and then chop it. I like that solution, and being a cork-bark elm, the wound will definitely heal with time, and unlike many other species, the foliage is nice and compact and suits a smaller tree. Personally I find that trunk bend monotonous and here I quote someone who said the bend in the Radiata I am going to dig today is monotonous - "You also remember your resolution that you aren't going to crowd your benches with questionable trees, and you realise that seeing it day after day, with that distracting, symmetrical half moon sagging, you are going to get irritated after a while."

Now just because I like it, does not mean it is right, and it certainly does not mean that it is the only design solution either, and that in itself is a valuable lesson for any beginner to take away from a forum like this.

So, to you I say that it is great to agree to disagree, and to Desdesign I say simply, look at all the options that the tree offers to you in terms of design, and choose not the popular one, but the one you think you will like the most, because you do bonsai for yourself, not for me or anyone else. The great thing about this forum is that it opens our eyes to options, and then we get to choose the one we like and jump in boots and all to working on achieving it. I am sure there could be a lovely tree in there without a chop, but I just don't see it myself.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Andrew Legg]

Firstly Thank you Lisa
I return to this from because of you. Im so sorry to say but most of people just advice chop it or air layer.
magpie thank you for your virt mate
I agree to you guys to be honest If I want a smaller tree I would buy a smaller tree but I want something large in my collection thats why I took this one.
There is so many thing is waiting on this tree but first thing is first I just reduc e branch sizes. still lots of work waiting but at least its a beginning.

in couple of month I will watch how tree will respond.

maybe I can add extra branch to right to get balance
what do you think ?

IMG_1194.JPG

Hey Des,

If you want something large, then don't chop it! I have had a look at your virt here and I think you need to think about how your foliage is going to be constructed. Now again, I state up front that what I'm about to say is my opinion only, and tastes and likes vary, so no need for offence if you see otherwise, BUT: One of my pet hates in bonsai is trees that have foliage clouds that look like professionally trimmed poodles. I have yet to see a tree like that in nature, so if this tree were mine, I'd aim for something more natural looking. Get more branches in there, and try to distribute the foliage more evenly. I'm going to try to do a virt to show you what I mean, but no promises as to how good it is gonna be OK! Remember, this is bonsai, not topiary!

I'll update this post with a pic in a little bit.

Cheers,

Andrew

[siddhar]

BUT: One of my pet hates in bonsai is trees that have foliage clouds that look like professionally trimmed poodles. I have yet to see a tree like that in nature, so if this tree were mine, I'd aim for something more natural looking. Get more branches in there, and try to distribute the foliage more evenly. I'm going to try to do a virt to show you what I mean, but no promises as to how good it is gonna be OK! Remember, this is bonsai, not topiary!

I totally agree. Advice and perspective only gained through years of experience. It's a fine line between creating a composition that is naturalistic, and creating a composition that is perfection in the eyes of the beholder. Bonsai as an art form gives us scope for self expression, but also gives the viewer a clear indication of the personality of the artist. After all "I do Bonsai for me."

[Andrew Legg]

OK Desdesign,

Since Lisa is being SO mean and is forcing me to be creative and not lazy , and since you want a beeeeeeg tree, not an eentsy little one, this is what I came up with . . . . .

virt 2.jpg

I have tried to get more clumps of foliage distributed across the whole composition as opposed to the fewer in your virt. Essentially it is very similar in thinking though. Main differences are the number of foliage pads, I have added a big branch on the outside of the curved trunk. I have done this to try to break the monotony of the curve, and have purposefully shown foliage visually crossing the trunk line in two places also to break the monotony of the curve. I think this softens the curve somewhat and makes it easier on the eye. You start to see the tree and not just a boomerang! I have also tried to get the top to feel as if it comes back toward the right. The bottom right hand branch (you know that fantastic one I was telling you about earlier!!!! ), well it forms it's own mini-tree to fill the foliage on the left bottom section of the tree. That works for me visually and of course it means you still have to grow it as a little tree all of its own right. That means Lisa and I are both happy. She gets no trunk chop, and I get my little tree! Finally, try to work towards a design that allows you to see the secondary and some tertiary branches as well. It is a tree, not a collection of bog brushes!

Anyway, there you have it. I hope it helps.

Cheerio,

Andrew

[LLK]

Firstly Thank you Lisa
I return to this from because of you. Im so sorry to say but most of people just advice chop it or air layer.
magpie thank you for your virt mate
I agree to you guys to be honest If I want a smaller tree I would buy a smaller tree but I want something large in my collection thats why I took this one.
There is so many thing is waiting on this tree but first thing is first I just reduc e branch sizes. still lots of work waiting but at least its a beginning.

in couple of month I will watch how tree will respond.

Good for you, Des, stick to your guns! There are some very nice and useful reflections in the posts above, which are worth thinking about.

maybe I can add extra branch to right to get balance, what do you think ?

You could try tilting the tree. Marc Noelanders, recently demonstrating at The Tops, said, "if you have a curved trunk, tilt it, the tree will look more natural." You will probably find that tilting it will inspire you; you will see a whole lot more in the way of possibilities.

To Andrew: I had to laugh when you quoted me re: a Radiata with a half moon bend in the trunk. I agree that it is great to agree to disagree, and I like what you wrote for Des. I think the 'poodle cut' in the virt is just a consequence of manipulating the graphics.
Just saw your post and the superb virtual! Geez, that would make a really top tree. What do you think of the idea of slightly tilting it?

To anttal63:

This tree is not in the league of paying homage to its predecessors. Oh did i mention thanks for the airlayer too. Therefor there is nothing left to advise on, the answer is very clear in my mind. As a young artist they should rip trees up like this and make better ones out of them.

Tsk tsk tsk....

Lisa

[AnneK]

Hi Andrew,

I've made the the mistake before of jumping in too quickly on subjects like this, but I'm going to chance my arm again. Bodhi is the one one to follow he loves his elms. And like him I too think you must be a beginner Andrew. My advice is very simple and a little brutal.

Lesson: First stand outside a dog parlour for a couple of hours and watch the parade of trimmed poodles come out of the shop. Next go into your nearest park or open space and try to see how many trees look like yours. Can you now see what I'm getting at?

Sure we trim our trees but they should not look like topiary, trees should be able to convey to the viewer that they can actually flutter in the wind.

It's maybe not the best time right now, but I suggest defoliation so you can see what ramification you have and where you can open it up.

This question has been a well responded to. Hope I haven't put the cat amongst………

Regs, AnneK.

[Andrew Legg]

To Andrew: I had to laugh when you quoted me re: a Radiata with a half moon bend in the trunk. I agree that it is great to agree to disagree, and I like what you wrote for Des. I think the 'poodle cut' in the virt is just a consequence of manipulating the graphics.
Just saw your post and the superb virtual! Geez, that would make a really top tree. What do you think of the idea of slightly tilting it?
Lisa

You mean into a cascade something like this . . . . . . . . . . . All the soil would fall out!

virt 2.jpg

Or not that much? LOL

[desdesign]

firstly I dont want to be aggressive
Of course everyone have different taste and it should be like that but what Im trying to say please check most of posts. If any one asking professional advice from any one in his forum most of reply is air layer. To be honey as personally Im sick of the read that in this forum.
Andrew mate look what have you done. to be honest I loved your virt actually I'm in love. And that s what I was expecting guys if everyone comes with different ideas ad if we discuss all options Im sure we can be much creative.
most of you guys have much more experience than me and Thank you for all your effort.

yesterday I got one more tree I bought it because it was really cheap. Normally If I realy lie it I buy something. any way on way back to home I saw a tree it was really natural I could had a chance to take a photo but gave me a idea.
Some times ideas coming natural like this some times with discussion or sometimes with fight
Thank you any way

IMG_1209.JPG

[siddhar]

Im sorry I gave my opinion. Anyone care to acknowledge what I bothered to put on a page?

[desdesign]

Im sorry I gave my opinion. Anyone care to acknowledge what I bothered to put on a page?

Thank you siddhar I agree mate and thanks to your opinion and sorry for late reply

[Andrew Legg]

Hi Andrew,

I've made the the mistake before of jumping in too quickly on subjects like this, but I'm going to chance my arm again. Bodhi is the one one to follow he loves his elms. And like him I too think you must be a beginner Andrew. My advice is very simple and a little brutal.

Lesson: First stand outside a dog parlour for a couple of hours and watch the parade of trimmed poodles come out of the shop. Next go into your nearest park or open space and try to see how many trees look like yours. Can you now see what I'm getting at?

Sure we trim our trees but they should not look like topiary, trees should be able to convey to the viewer that they can actually flutter in the wind.

It's maybe not the best time right now, but I suggest defoliation so you can see what ramification you have and where you can open it up.

This question has been a well responded to. Hope I haven't put the cat amongst………

Regs, AnneK.

Hey Anne,

Does it still look like a poodle!!!! I'm trying to get it to not look like a poodle, so maybe it needs even more branches. Getting it right on a virt is obviously beyond my skills, but I thought I'd gone in the right direction as a start!

Am I a beginner? Yes. Oh the shame! Have I been doing bonsai according to Figure 2, 3 and 4 in John Naka's book for 48 years? No, thank goodness not. I try to mix it up, learn, try different things etc etc. I have trees growing in pure river sand, pure chook poo, pure cat litter, pure expanded clay, and everything in between. I have them planted as cascades, semi-cascades, windswepts, informal uprights, clumps, and even one growing in a Croc shoe (that'll rock the very core of the establishment!). I have pines, olives, azaleas, elms, trident and Japanese Maples. I have pyracantha, buddleja, junipers, lavender trees, crab apple, ginko and hawthorn. I like to mix it up and learn and whilst I've had an interest in bonsai for about 14 years now, my living circumstances (international moves and tiny houses) have only allowed me to really go crazy in the last 5 or 6 years. So what's a beginner and how does it matter?

What would you do with this tree were it yours? Just saying "grow more branches" is not a valid answer as Des is asking for advice that will give him/her some sort of vision of an end goal. Have a look at Walter Pall's famous large Japanese Maple. That's the kind of foliage I think looks good (he calls it naturalistic), but that's difficult to put across on a virt (at least for me it is) On this tree of Des's I see something like that, but more defined as a mother/son style tree. Perhaps drop in a few photos from the web or from your collection that you like, and we'll be able to get a feel for where you'd take this one. How would you handle the curve of the trunk? Would you keep it as a dominant feature, hide it or reduce it?

Have a cool day,

Andrew

[siddhar]

Thanks Andrew, Ill hangout in the shadows in future.

[Guy]

and after reading all that, if the nebari suited,and because I tend to prefer smaller trees I would still airlayer above the first branch and possibly above the second branch as well--I would prefer that slow curve above the first branch to be in the lower trunk rather than halfway up the tree

[MoGanic]

This has become an interestingly controversial post.

=] good luck with your tree mate whatever you decide.

Andrews latest virt looks great =] and quite similar to the one I intended to do (and failed at miserably).

Anywhoozits, ciao!

-Mo