80-20 soil mix ? Calling on the experts again :)

[Pup]

Pup,

I've been growing plants longer than I've been doing bonsai. And the coels soil hasn't failed me yet. Been using it for a few years now. No compaction other than what I would consider acceptable.

If you want some pictures, what would I post specifically? I would be more than happy to take a few snaps to put up.

Jasonb

Jason, any pot plant is different to Bonsai, as when it is said that, that is where they grow. As has been said here. Soil compaction is one big no/no for Bonsai, it has to breath, a build up of roots and solids from watering and fertilising will after about 3 years show up.
As with wire it can be replaced cheaply. The dead tree was it worth being a cheapskate sorry for being blunt.

Have been there and done that/ but what would I know after 28 years. It takes at least 3 years to see what effects BAD soil has on a tree. Even the Japanese Masters have had a failure when they did not get rid of all the old soil.
I will admit that if you ask 10 good Bonsai growers you are likely to get 10 good mixes. Yours is not one, I would try or recommend. My wife's Ferns and Palms roses frangipanis all grow well in a mix. Of 2 parts by volume of Carnarvon river sand 2 parts by volume Akadama and 1 part by volume coco peat.
With temperatures at a regular 30+ in summer cool change today 27. This mix works well for all my trees native exotic and the miniatures.

I would like a picture of a good Bonsai that you have grown well in that mix for more than 1 year.

Thank you Pup

[craigw60]

When I first started growing bonsai in the early 80s we were taught to sieve the potting mix and pot our trees into the fines discarding the coarse components. The trees grew but development was slow. Several years later Ian Edwards showed me his mix which was debco fine orchid mix and graded granite, I potted some trees in this mix and immediately noticed a marked improvement in the speed of growth in my trees, a short time later I discovered diatomite and that replaced the granite component it was only then that I achieved really fantastic growth on my trees.
Potting mix is so much more than just keeping trees growing, its about fine root development and heavy feeding and air circulation. Its easy to keep a plant growing in almost any potting medium, I grow thousands of pot plants for my nursery but the bonsai are very different and require special treatment if you want to develop finely refined trees.
Root development and branch ramification are inextricably tied together to develop fine ramification in a substandard mix is going to take so much longer than using a good open free draining mix, thats the reason we use coarse potting mixes, there are other benefits as well, come repotting time the removal of old potting mix and replacement with fresh is so much easier with a high grade mix.
A bonsai is grown with a very limited space for root growth and its important that as much of that space as possible is filled with fine feeder roots this will not happen if you have limited air circulation and inferior drainage.
Craigw

[Jasonb]

Pup, taking into consideration that I have only been doing bonsai specifically for 13 months, or there abouts poses a slight problem. I would not consider any of my bonsai " good " I will however post some pics of trees/plants that have been growing in that mix for that time and are going quite well.

In regards to " 28 years, what would I know". I never questioned what you know, I simply replied to the topic with what works for me and then you replied at me, to be blunt.

[Jasonb]

Hit send too early, apologies.

In response though, I have definitely headed the advice given and understand the soil skimping isn't worth a tree or collection being lost and will revise my mix on reporting my trees when that time comes.








Granted, I do not have experience with other soils to be able to so whether these trees or species of, would or wouldn't have grown better or worse, but as it stands they are alive, they are growing and that is all I can tell you.

Jasonb

[Brian]

Craig,
I remember 20 years ago Ian Edwards talking about his custom potting mix of pine bark and crushed granite or blue metal stones. I am searching through all the threads on Dolomite / zealite to work out the best ratio of potting mix with these ingredients. I am in particular looking to repot pines and sergeants junipers into this potting mix.

[craigw60]

Hi Brian, the stone component makes your pots very heavy and I wouldn't consider it an option these days, diatomite is very light and easy to use. Ian was mixing roughly 50/50, his theory was that all the components need to be around the same particle size to create perfect drainage.
Craigw

[bodhidharma]

This topic has been covered and recovered and them some. What is striking me though is that the poster who has asked the question has given no input whatsoever

[Josh]

This topic has been covered and recovered and them some. What is striking me though is that the poster who has asked the question has given no input whatsoever

Maybe he's out working on his trees, unlike everyone else on here

Josh

[Pup]

This topic has been covered and recovered and them some. What is striking me though is that the poster who has asked the question has given no input whatsoever

This will be my last attempt, at trying to educate learners, as they are the ones now teaching.

Good techniques as learned over the years have no place, where the dollar out does common sense. Good soil mix means good healthy Bonsai, bad mix means they struggle and eventually succumb to it.

Craig has explained it better and more eloquently than I. Even Japanese Masters will attest to this. So in the long run you do not save the money.

As with wire when you want to save 30cm of wire, you try to unwind it and snap the branch, you have been trying to bend for two years. Dead branches cannot be replaced wire can.

There are many ways to save money when it comes to Bonsai Soil and Wire should not be considered, get the best .
The reward will be in much better trees,therefor more satisfaction.
Cheers

[stocaz]

This topic has been covered and recovered and them some. What is striking me though is that the poster who has asked the question has given no input whatsoever

haha thanks for that

Thanks everyone for your advice I've just been researching & have come to the conclusion that I'm not using the potting mix.

looks like I'm gonna get my hands on some 2-7mm diatomite from Vitec in sommerton & mix it with zeolite (Can anyone recommend where to buy in Melb)
maybe 80% & 20% coco peat

or no coco peat.
is the coco peat necessary ?

Dont know bit hard when you have no idea lol

Thanks for all the advice its good to be able to ask the questions and get some experienced answers

Cheers Ross

[stocaz]

This topic has been covered and recovered and them some. What is striking me though is that the poster who has asked the question has given no input whatsoever

This will be my last attempt, at trying to educate learners, as they are the ones now teaching.

Good techniques as learned over the years have no place, where the dollar out does common sense. Good soil mix means good healthy Bonsai, bad mix means they struggle and eventually succumb to it.

Craig has explained it better and more eloquently than I. Even Japanese Masters will attest to this. So in the long run you do not save the money.

As with wire when you want to save 30cm of wire, you try to unwind it and snap the branch, you have been trying to bend for two years. Dead branches cannot be replaced wire can.

There are many ways to save money when it comes to Bonsai Soil and Wire should not be considered, get the best .
The reward will be in much better trees,therefor more satisfaction.
Cheers

Speaking for myself I don't care what I spend !
All I know is that my wife isn't happy with me cause I spend all my time in the backyard with my trees & not with her

I've been lucky enough to buy a few established trees as well as some starters in the last couple of months since I got the bonsai bug & last thing I want is
to invest all this time in them and fail.
Doesn't matter what needs to be done as long as I get it right or my wife will shoot me

[Brian]

Ross,
I just purchased a good quantity of Diatomite and zealite from Damian Bee on this forum. He is based around the Footscray area.

[cre8ivbonsai]

There is a new product on the market imported from NZ under the brand name "orchiata" its graded pine bark with a very consistent particle size and almost no fines so sieving and wastage is minimal

B&T orchids and ferns or garden city plastics

Thanks Craig, good to know I'll be sure to give Orchiata a try as I often found BioGro had considerable amount of fines and once sifted out you were paying for a lot less for our purposes.
Thanks,
Ryan

[lackhand]

or no coco peat.
is the coco peat necessary ?

That's a good question. I've been using diatomite for almost three years now, mostly with coco peat, and it has definitely passed the test in my book. My trees are much better off (faster growing, and I haven't had any significant losses) than with the commercial mix (even commercial "bonsai soil") that I started with.

As to the necessity of coco peat, I only started leaving it out less than a year ago. So far I haven't noticed a difference, but everybody I know here recommends it. Then again, they all also use some amount of grit or sand that really doesn't hold water, so maybe they equal each other out? Who knows.

This will be my last attempt, at trying to educate learners, as they are the ones now teaching.

Hopefully I can say this without offending anybody . . . I think this is a good place for a reminder to consider the source when reading through these forums. Each person has a "bonsai age" which probably isn't super accurate, but between that and looking for photos of work the person has done, you should be able to tell who you can really trust around here. To me, the word of Pup is solid gold, and there are a good number of others who fall into that category. Then there are some that I read and think, "That's interesting, but . . . ", and then there are some that aren't worth much at all.

Everybody is inclined to give an opinion when it's asked for, and it's up to the reader to weigh that opinion and then make a good choice.

This is most important when talking about horticulture. Style is anybody's game. Some newbies tend to have a natural talent for it, and since everybody would do it slightly different anyway, there really is no harm in talking style. But horticulture is plant health, and that advice should be scrutinized much more closely. You better have a really good reason for trying something different than what experienced and successful growers are doing. Soil falls into this area - don't mess with it unless you have a good reason, and then be VERY careful about it, not putting your whole collection at risk just to try something.

And finally, please don't give up on us! People like Pup are what make this forum a great place to come for advice.

[Lynette]

hello Paul,
back near the beginning of this post I think you said you grow your plants in 100 diatomite. Could you expand on that. I have just changed my mix and put a bout 60 % diatomite and found on hot days ( probably not as hot as phonex) that plants like maples etc dried out very quickly, although the pines and junipers seem to be doing very well in it.
I have changed growing climates a few years ago and it is generally much wetter here that I am use to, so I have been trying various mixes, but not come up with something I am completly happy with. Somebody told me that they grew in 100% diatomite, but that they had to water twice a day and option that is not open to me every day.
Thanks,
lynette