Some trees from 45 years ago

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Mojo Moyogi »

Thymetraveller wrote:In a way these trees remind me of photos of athletes and movie stars from the sixties and seventies. If you compare their physiques with those expected today, honed, toned and pumped up with steroids, I think theres a definite paralell with the trees that take the gongs these days.
This is not to detract from the extraordinary levels of skill, patience and technique that go into their creation, but my preference is for a much gentler, more natural look.
Thanks for posting!
Yes! I want to see more Ursula Andress style shimpaku and less Kim Kardashian style shimpaku :lol:

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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Lane »

Too much reverse taper for her!
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Thymetraveller »

:lol: :P :lol:
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Piscineidiot »

I'd argue what happened was the art 'evolved'.

Like literally any other artform, bonsai has changed/is changing.

If we take painting as an example, impressionist paintings were initially regarded simply as being examples of poor technique. The more 'fashionable' thing to do, and was considered more 'technically proficient', was to paint super-realistically with little or no stylisation.

Not too many people these days would accuse Renoir or Van Gogh of being hacks.

Is Van Gogh's starry night an accurate, photo-realistic rendition of the night sky looking out from the window of an asylum? No.

Is it now widely regarded as a stunning piece of art in its own right? Yes.

Does this mean you HAVE to like Van Gogh's art or impressionism? Of course not!

Those more highly stylised bonsais are just that. An exploration of what they can do to a tree while working towards a particular aesthetic. It just so happens that the Japanese aesthetic is leaning towards trees that look like the 'modern' ones at the moment. Maybe one day, they'll become more 'retro' again. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of bonsai artists out there working in both directions, and some amalgamate the two (Ryan Neil and Mike Hagedorn spring to mind).

As for the assumption that if the bonsai judges were bonsai artists themselves they wouldn't hand out first prize to the more stylised trees etc.

Why?

If a bonsai artist's tastes to lean towards a more stylised trees, they'll of course find them more aesthetically pleasing. There's no right or wrong. I highly doubt a judge who's tastes were for more stylised trees would suddenly become prostrate in grief and apologise for their lack of judgement in the past if you put a more naturalistic tree in front of them. The likelihood is they'd acknowledge it was a nice tree, but it just wasn't to their taste. Fair enough.

Arguing that there is a SINGLE BEST approach to bonsai is simply unlikely to result in anything positive or constructive. It's an artform that involves living trees. Granted, there are rules, but the expression of the tree's form is entirely up to the artist's wants and needs. You're quite welcome to dislike someone's tree or their aesthetic and pursue something else, but saying there's a better or worse style is like arguing over which colour is better.

Anyway, rant over.

Owen
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Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Theodore »

melbrackstone wrote:Great post, Mike, thanks for sharing!

Sadly I think trends for greater grooming are going to continue while people are doing the same to themselves. Who'd have thought a person could make a living ripping hair off people's private parts, gluing acrylic nails on, or tweezing eyebrows for clients would be common enough that you could earn a living from it... The money people spend on trying to look "beautiful" would stagger some... and I suspect that this is rubbing off onto bonsai made to look like topiary.

Give me those natural shapes from 1971 any day!
And the wiring of every branch can be equated to coving every square inch of skin with ink! Why would you do that to your skin? And why do that to your tree.

I tend to think the wiring of every branch is from our desire to have instant results rather than use time and horticultural skill to get the result.

I agree 1971 was much more natural and pleasing to look at! Great post.

Theo
Last edited by Theodore on May 2nd, 2016, 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by melbrackstone »

If a bonsai artist's tastes to lean towards a more stylised trees, they'll of course find them more aesthetically pleasing. There's no right or wrong. I highly doubt a judge who's tastes were for more stylised trees would suddenly become prostrate in grief and apologise for their lack of judgement in the past if you put a more naturalistic tree in front of them. The likelihood is they'd acknowledge it was a nice tree, but it just wasn't to their taste. Fair enough.

Arguing that there is a SINGLE BEST approach to bonsai is simply unlikely to result in anything positive or constructive. It's an artform that involves living trees. Granted, there are rules, but the expression of the tree's form is entirely up to the artist's wants and needs. You're quite welcome to dislike someone's tree or their aesthetic and pursue something else, but saying there's a better or worse style is like arguing over which colour is better.

Anyway, rant over.

Owen
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Good point, Owen.

As a photographer of fine art nudes, I am regularly sniped at for not doing it "right." So I need to remember this when it comes to bonsai... Cheers!
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by treeman »

Piscineidiot wrote:I'd argue what happened was the art 'evolved'.

Like literally any other artform, bonsai has changed/is changing.

If we take painting as an example, impressionist paintings were initially regarded simply as being examples of poor technique. The more 'fashionable' thing to do, and was considered more 'technically proficient', was to paint super-realistically with little or no stylisation.

Not too many people these days would accuse Renoir or Van Gogh of being hacks.

Is Van Gogh's starry night an accurate, photo-realistic rendition of the night sky looking out from the window of an asylum? No.

Is it now widely regarded as a stunning piece of art in its own right? Yes.

Does this mean you HAVE to like Van Gogh's art or impressionism? Of course not!

Those more highly stylised bonsais are just that. An exploration of what they can do to a tree while working towards a particular aesthetic. It just so happens that the Japanese aesthetic is leaning towards trees that look like the 'modern' ones at the moment. Maybe one day, they'll become more 'retro' again. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of bonsai artists out there working in both directions, and some amalgamate the two (Ryan Neil and Mike Hagedorn spring to mind).

As for the assumption that if the bonsai judges were bonsai artists themselves they wouldn't hand out first prize to the more stylised trees etc.

Why?

If a bonsai artist's tastes to lean towards a more stylised trees, they'll of course find them more aesthetically pleasing. There's no right or wrong. I highly doubt a judge who's tastes were for more stylised trees would suddenly become prostrate in grief and apologise for their lack of judgement in the past if you put a more naturalistic tree in front of them. The likelihood is they'd acknowledge it was a nice tree, but it just wasn't to their taste. Fair enough.

Arguing that there is a SINGLE BEST approach to bonsai is simply unlikely to result in anything positive or constructive. It's an artform that involves living trees. Granted, there are rules, but the expression of the tree's form is entirely up to the artist's wants and needs. You're quite welcome to dislike someone's tree or their aesthetic and pursue something else, but saying there's a better or worse style is like arguing over which colour is better.

Anyway, rant over.

Owen
I do not believe that we can place the art of bonsai together with other traditional art forms where complete freedom to create whatever comes from the human mind is acceptable.
My reasoning for this is simple. Bonsai has (or at least had, and for me, still has) a specific purpose.
From ''The Masters book of Bonsai'' (JBA),...... ''Bonsai is a tree or plant in a container and is therefore small in size, but yet in it's entirety expresses the beauty and volume of a tree growing in it's natural environment''
Ok, so from that and numerous other similar definitions, the purpose of bonsai is to express NATURE. In my mind as soon as a deviation from this concept becomes evident, the original purpose is diluted and the tree is rendered inferior.
If you believe that the purpose of bonsai has now changed and the goal is, or can be, to express a more vague concept of a tree (as some of the more abstract impressionist or avant garde art works) then the sky is the limit and you would be wrong to criticize a ball on a stick as someone's interpretation of a tree and being just as valid as any other bonsai. After all it has all the main features of a tree - roots, trunk, branches and leaves. You can no longer use the argument of ''trees don't grow like that''. To do so leaves you open to the counter argument of ''trees also don't grow the way they are styled in modern exhibitions either''. Why is one ok but the other is not?
You might consider this a ridiculous example but if you think about it, it is not. If there is no line drawn the definition becomes extremely elastic. So, of course there must be a line drawn and it should be quite narrow.
Obviously there should be quite some latitude given when evaluating trees. Even if the intention of the creator was the same - to express the image of a natural tree - there will always be many degrees of proficiency. And there will always be many degrees of success.
The modern manicured look seems to me to be - at least in part - a result of a deviation from the original concept (above) to the desire to compete with another's technique. The aim of perfection is the wrong road to take in this art form. Real natural beauty lies in imperfection. So after all that, I would have to say is there right and wrong? Maybe not. Are there superior or inferior bonsai when considered with the original concept in mind? There can be no other answer than yes!
Mike
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Jarad »

I'm with Owen on this one. Bonsai is Art, and art defines and redefines itself all the time.

Can you base an argument for discussion on a book written in the 20th Century, when the hobby itself has it's roots dating back over a millennium?

:imo:
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by treeman »

Ok, try this; Bonsai is part craft (the manipulation of materials) and part art (the expression of some concept)
I believe too much emphasis has been given to the craft lately. Looking at the trees in question, how could you come to any other conclusion?
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Lane »

None of the to-ing and fro-ing here will ever have any effect on the direction and fashion of current bonsai trends in Japan and other parts of the world, I completely understand if it isn't to your liking however, there's little anyone here can do about it. Aside from debating on here which is always fun!

From what I've seen here of our native trees the styling seems to be much more raw and rugged as that is what our natives growth pattern generally dictates as well as our wild and varied climate.

I have read my fair share of the subjective artistic threads on here and I get to a point and then realise it is far beyond the scope of my experience at this stage but interesting to read nonetheless.
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by treeman »

MacGuyver wrote:
None of the to-ing and fro-ing here will ever have any effect on the direction and fashion of current bonsai trends in Japan and other parts of the world, I completely understand if it isn't to your liking however, there's little anyone here can do about it. Aside from debating on here which is always fun!
Not true! An idea always has to start somewhere. This is not the only place where this subject is debated. The same arguments are going on everywhere including Japan. Every idea sympathetic with the another only adds to the whole. It's just one more straw on the camel's back. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course now with the digital age, the straws will pile up very quickly. Just wait and see!
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by kez »

Mike,

I really respect your talent as a bonsai artist, and in my opinion you have some of the finest trees I have seen displayed on this site

However,

This isn't the first of this kind of thread that you have posted, and you seem to at once open the discussion to the opinion of others and then argue with them about why your opinion is the only logical choice.

If people don't like the style of certain trees, then it is their choice to not grow their own trees in that way, I for one am getting mighty sick of people on here trying to ram the idea of how to grow or style trees down other peoples throats.

If this isn't the intention then so be it, but I read it as such, and my patience for reading it is running thin. I know what my choice will be if it continues
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by treeman »

kez wrote:Mike,

I really respect your talent as a bonsai artist, and in my opinion you have some of the finest trees I have seen displayed on this site

However,

This isn't the first of this kind of thread that you have posted, and you seem to at once open the discussion to the opinion of others and then argue with them about why your opinion is the only logical choice.

If people don't like the style of certain trees, then it is their choice to not grow their own trees in that way, I for one am getting mighty sick of people on here trying to ram the idea of how to grow or style trees down other peoples throats.

If this isn't the intention then so be it, but I read it as such, and my patience for reading it is running thin. I know what my choice will be if it continues
Heaven forend Kez!

Firstly, If your patience is running thin, don't read the posts!

Secondly, if you do read them and comprehend them correctly, you will notice things such as this:
If you believe that the purpose of bonsai has now changed and the goal is, or can be, to express a more vague concept of a tree (as some of the more abstract impressionist or avant garde art works) then the sky is the limit and you would be wrong to criticize a ball on a stick as someone's interpretation of a tree and being just as valid as any other bonsai. After all it has all the main features of a tree - roots, trunk, branches and leaves. You can no longer use the argument of ''trees don't grow like that''. To do so leaves you open to the counter argument of ''trees also don't grow the way they are styled in modern exhibitions either''. Why is one ok but the other is not?
And this:
Are there superior or inferior bonsai when considered with the original concept in mind? There can be no other answer than yes!
And this:
I believe too much emphasis has been given to the craft lately
Where is the ramming? I try to introduce an idea for discussion and put forth how and why I see things a certain way. If I disagree with a reply I will put forward reasons why I do. Do you want discussions where everyone agrees? What would be the point of that? I am well aware of differing individual views. I am simply demonstrating mine and the reasons for them. If you happen to disagree then argue it and I will consider your point. If you're patience is running thin then just click on another thread.
Last edited by treeman on May 3rd, 2016, 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Piscineidiot »

treeman wrote: I do not believe that we can place the art of bonsai together with other traditional art forms where complete freedom to create whatever comes from the human mind is acceptable.
My reasoning for this is simple. Bonsai has (or at least had, and for me, still has) a specific purpose.
From ''The Masters book of Bonsai'' (JBA),...... ''Bonsai is a tree or plant in a container and is therefore small in size, but yet in it's entirety expresses the beauty and volume of a tree growing in it's natural environment''
Ok, so from that and numerous other similar definitions, the purpose of bonsai is to express NATURE. In my mind as soon as a deviation from this concept becomes evident, the original purpose is diluted and the tree is rendered inferior.
If you believe that the purpose of bonsai has now changed and the goal is, or can be, to express a more vague concept of a tree (as some of the more abstract impressionist or avant garde art works) then the sky is the limit and you would be wrong to criticize a ball on a stick as someone's interpretation of a tree and being just as valid as any other bonsai. After all it has all the main features of a tree - roots, trunk, branches and leaves. You can no longer use the argument of ''trees don't grow like that''. To do so leaves you open to the counter argument of ''trees also don't grow the way they are styled in modern exhibitions either''. Why is one ok but the other is not?
You might consider this a ridiculous example but if you think about it, it is not. If there is no line drawn the definition becomes extremely elastic. So, of course there must be a line drawn and it should be quite narrow.
Obviously there should be quite some latitude given when evaluating trees. Even if the intention of the creator was the same - to express the image of a natural tree - there will always be many degrees of proficiency. And there will always be many degrees of success.
The modern manicured look seems to me to be - at least in part - a result of a deviation from the original concept (above) to the desire to compete with another's technique. The aim of perfection is the wrong road to take in this art form. Real natural beauty lies in imperfection. So after all that, I would have to say is there right and wrong? Maybe not. Are there superior or inferior bonsai when considered with the original concept in mind? There can be no other answer than yes!
My question is, how is it not?

If the definition/purpose of bonsai is/was solely to express nature once upon a time, how the 'nature' is expressed, and the qualities of nature that are being expressed are entirely up to the artists themselves. (By the way, was this definition written before or after the introduction of the use of wire in bonsai? If it was before, then we are ALL bastardising bonsai)

Traditional oriental paintings of nature are also supposed to express nature (the man who taught me to paint also painted in the traditional, oriental manner, and the language is used a LOT), but I'm yet to see a scroll painting done in ink that contains ANY photo-realistic renditions of nature.

18th Century Japanese: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... kei-zu.jpg

18th Century Dutch: http://www.priory-fine-art.co.uk/Featur ... owers.aspx

Even though the Japanese silk screen contains more detail, the image itself feels more stylised. This is common among in MANY Japanese artforms (and arguably extends to the current iteration of bonsai in Japan). It's obviously a painting of something from nature, but it's very manicured, and sanitised, and it's apparent what the artist/client felt was more visually interesting/aesthetically pleasing, because all those things are accentuated beyond their natural state (every fibre on every feather is visible, for example). The Dutch example, while actually containing less detail, far more closely emulates the natural forms as a whole.

Here's another example. Having been involved in the aquarium industry too for a very long time, I saw the rising of a concept known as "The Nature Aquarium" in Japan. These planted aquariums were grown to EXPRESS the beauty of nature with a Japanese aesthetic. Beautiful, undoubtedly, but when you REALLY looked at them, did they ever truly represent a single existing ecosystem in nature? No! They gave the IMPRESSION of nature, and emphasised the aesthetically pleasing. They represent an idealised wilderness, not the thing itself.

See this link for some pretty nice examples of 'Nature Aquaria': http://www.adaaust.com.au/gallery/gallery02.htm

Anyway, I get the feeling that the major point in contention is what is meant by "to express nature". There seem to be two definitions I have arrived upon from the reading of a few of the arguments being put forward in this thread and others (granted, there must be others).

A) A tree must closely approximate one in the nature to express nature
B) A tree expresses nature if it can evoke feelings for nature

This is not a debate that is only salient to bonsai. It's one that once upon a time raged on in ALL genres of art.

For example: When is a landscape painting no longer a landscape painting? Is a painting worth less if the particularities of its subject are not captured? At what point is it just laziness? etc.

I believe my previous example of impressionist art is quite appropriate for this debate.

Previous to the popularity of impressionism, paintings were meant to LITERALLY convey reality i.e. the more closely a painting resembled the subject, the better the art and the artist.

For centuries, this was the case.

Then some people turned up that thought they wanted to capture the ambience, and the feeling of the subject, even if it meant compromising on time-honoured rules like solid, defined forms, lines of perspective needing to be in place, and mixing your damned paints before applying them to the canvas.

Instead, impressionist paintings (as the name implies), give the IMPRESSION (i.e. the light, the mood, the 'energy') of the situation, the environment, the subject. The reaction to these paintings is far more emotional/evocative and less 'objective' (Oh yes, that's a beautiful rendition of an English Elm, it can be confused with no other tree... nyur nyur...).

Van Gogh died penniless because people at the time did not appreciate his approach to painting. They just considered them crap paintings. In reality, it was because their tastes didn't align with Van Gogh's.

As I said before, different people will prefer different approaches. One appeals more to those who appreciate the craft necessary to miniaturise a tree while still maintaining the holistic appearance (warts and all) of a wild one, and one will appeal more to those who feel more moved by a more idealised/derived form, or representation of nature (i.e. wow, I wish a tree that perfect/beautiful existed in nature...).

The fact that you feel more strongly about something doesn't mean others have to too. Or that judges/competitions must necessarily share your view.

And ultimately, what would the course of action be? To create a list of bonsai derived genres? Or just go from calling things bonsai to 'trees in a pot' (which would be hilariously ironic) if they don't fit our definition?

At the end of the day, it's all pretty arbitrary and we all grow trees in the way we like to, whether it's like the trees of yore, or a more modern, clean look, or a mixture of both. Sure, it would be nice to have recognition for your efforts and what you feel is a great (or dare I say it, the true...) expression of an artform, but art in its purist form has never been about popularity, nor should it. The only questions that really matter in the end are:

"Does it look like you want it to?"

And if the answer is "No", then:

"How can I make it do so?"

Cheers,

Owen
Last edited by Piscineidiot on May 3rd, 2016, 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some trees from 45 years ago

Post by Piscineidiot »

After all it has all the main features of a tree - roots, trunk, branches and leaves. You can no longer use the argument of ''trees don't grow like that''. To do so leaves you open to the counter argument of ''trees also don't grow the way they are styled in modern exhibitions either''. Why is one ok but the other is not?
Oh, and in answer to this, my answer is that: "Objectively, neither can truly be argued"

There are no objective, scientific and measurable standards to 'bonsainess', no objective, scientific measurements of how 'true' a bonsai is to the artform. Therefore, any judgement is largely subjective.

Sure, there are rules that dictate a good design (for anything really) such as rhythm, line, symmetry etc., but judges at bonsai shows aren't mathematically and scientifically measuring all of these.

The real answer (and this is one coming from a social scientist studying how people think abstractly), is that: "It's because their peers/community say so"

People operate in communities, and in every community, there are social norms. In Japan, at the moment, the social norms lean towards highly manicured, sanitised trees. They all know that trees don't look like that in the world, but the see these trees as accentuating that which is most subjectively beautiful to them in nature.

Sure, a bush in a pot, or heaven forbid, an un-wired conifer might be truer to form, but their social norm dictates that this is 'unpleasant', or 'unrefined' even if horticulturally, it's probably better.

The fact is, these are bonsai shows held in Japan. Therefore, it's logical that those trees that are judged 'best', will be indicative of what the Japanese bonsai community finds attractive at this point in time. That may or may not change into the future, but that's neither a bad or a good thing. It's simply what it is.

I daresay you wouldn't be so confident as to fly to Japan and confront Mr. Kimura and Mr. Fujikawa and tell them that their trees have deviated too far from what their Japanese forefathers envisioned, would you?

It is simply what it is. Tastes are dictated by social norms, and these can/will change over time. But, most importantly, THEY NEVER HAVE TO BE WHAT YOU WANT THEM/EXPECT THEM TO BE.

You pick your audiences and assign as much credit to 'judges'/'critics' as you want to.

There's always going to be someone out to shake the 'norm' up, and that's always a good thing for an artistic community. But they're typically not always shaking in the same direction, and they rarely if ever get instant recognition! That certainly doesn't diminish their contributions, but it is the way humans work. Like I said, it's not always a popularity contest, nor should it be.

Owen
Last edited by Piscineidiot on May 3rd, 2016, 4:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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