AusBonsai

This has been an interesting read actually, and i have gone away and thought more about it.

I have broken down your inital question into what i think are the basic stumbling blocks that people find themselves at. I will expand further on each one

1. Starting with young material and the development thereof

2. The idea of a a beginning and an end.

3. Pot selection for balance of growth rate vs health of tree.



So the expansion of those

1. Starting with young material and making the progression from initial work to something approaching a bonsai.

I think a primary difficulty you will always encounter with information on how to progress extremely young material is that no or very few sources of information are geared towards that. Your best bet tends to be older books as i mentioned in my previous post, that give illustrations. Treeman above really nailed it though and you won't find much different to that elsewhere.

As much as he is maligned on here for being a bit of a loose unit, Nigel Saunders has a plethora of youtube vidoes on growing very young material on for bonsai future. Am i saying he does amazing work that you should follow above all else? No, certainly not. He's just having fun with it, but the principles may prove beneficial to you. Virtually any professional, any club night, any online articles are never going to be set up to start from a cutting because you literally cannot show anything of any particular value beyond an inital root prune for a flat base and wiring up a little trunk.


Time frame comes in here too, but your first step is envisaging what you want the tree to eventually look like. Is your cutting going to be a 10cm tall mame size tree, or are you trying to end up with a 1m tall specimen tree? Wildy different approaches to those two outcomes and two very different time lines.

Here is a photo montage of my Japanese Maple rebuild tree that started as a seed or cutting around 1961. I'd love some photos between 1963 and 1980, but you can see that it took 17 years to go from one to the other. The tree is flipped 180 degrees from the two photos and you can see the fork at the top in 1963 now forms a primary branch in 1980. Today this tree is around 70cm tall, and will eventually be in the region of 80cm with apex complete and it is in its 62nd year. 2. The idea of a beginning and and end. So the big maple there.....when would you have called that 'finished'? In 1980? Perhaps you prefer the image in 1991? Or was it when it was entered in a show for the first time in 1993? Is 2003 photo finished or has that gone too far and needs to be restyled and begun all over again? When will i consider it 'finished'? when i enter it into a show again? When it has an apex and 'x' amount of ramification?

Every tree has a beginning and none have an end other than the great big mulch pile in the sky. You might find it easier to bite off a chunk at a time and think of it in terms of basic steps. Initial trunk/ nebari development, primary branch selection, secondary branch and apex development and tackle i that way at first. Just becuase you have grown certain branches for 20 years doesn't mean they will always be there. Devleop what you think will look good in future, and focus on that until you see something better emerging.



3. Pot selection. I think this has been covered sufficiently well by others that i don't need to go overly into it. Again back to point 1, do you want a mame tree or a 1m tall tree? The more you confine the roots the slower the rate of development up top. However, you can over pot a tree and set it on a path to death very easily too. But yes if you are growing minis then you will want to keep the roots quite restricted.


And finally in answer to the question posed by the title of the thread; how do i devleop trees? Easy, i cheat.

I do not grow any of my trees from seed, i sometimes take cuttings but generally not, and if i am propagating it is air layers of rare maples. If i start with rough stock i start with a stump with a size and movement i already am happy with. and focus energy and effort on buildng the branch structure instead.

More commonly i will obtain and old established bonsai that has been neglected, nurse it back to health and build on the structure it has. I get very little satisfaction growing sticks in pots, so i grow established trees and improve them.

Thanks Tim. I really, REALLY appreciate the in depth information and explanation. That’s brilliant and really helpful. This is the kind of info I mean. It’s hard to find and no one really covers it leaving me with so many questions. I understand now. Sorry, ADHD can make it hard to explain what I’m asking.

I’ll have a look through Nigel’s videos. He’s pretty good imo.

I guess it makes sense now when fertilising why people have told me not to put the fertiliser right next to the trunk rather, spread in a circle on the outside so the roots spread out to get those sweet nutrients? I also assume that, when you’re at the root reduction stage, you reduce gradually over time rather than all at once?

I have quite a few seedlings/tube stock to work on and am pretty confident I can dive in tomorrow knowing what I’m doing.

I probably should’ve said ‘how do you develop from tubestock/seedling/cutting to bonsai ready’ instead of finish. I do see really old trees getting crazy make overs and yeah, I guess the tree is always changing and going forward.

I really did wish it was easy to obtain older bonsai as to I’d go the same route but, decent stock or older stock is near on impossible to come by here in Perth.

Once again, thank you for spending the time replying and helping me out. Its greatly appreciated

Mickeyjaytee wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 10:11 pm Thanks Tim. I really, REALLY appreciate the in depth information and explanation. That’s brilliant and really helpful. This is the kind of info I mean. It’s hard to find and no one really covers it leaving me with so many questions. I understand now. Sorry, ADHD can make it hard to explain what I’m asking.

I’ll have a look through Nigel’s videos. He’s pretty good imo.

I guess it makes sense now when fertilising why people have told me not to put the fertiliser right next to the trunk rather, spread in a circle on the outside so the roots spread out to get those sweet nutrients? I also assume that, when you’re at the root reduction stage, you reduce gradually over time rather than all at once?

I have quite a few seedlings/tube stock to work on and am pretty confident I can dive in tomorrow knowing what I’m doing.

I probably should’ve said ‘how do you develop from tubestock/seedling/cutting to bonsai ready’ instead of finish. I do see really old trees getting crazy make overs and yeah, I guess the tree is always changing and going forward.

I really did wish it was easy to obtain older bonsai as to I’d go the same route but, decent stock or older stock is near on impossible to come by here in Perth.

Once again, thank you for spending the time replying and helping me out. Its greatly appreciated

Honestly I found Nigel really useful when beginning as I'm a visual learner. I can read articles until the cows come home, but until I see it I won't get it.

Fertilising is generally not against the trunk because the root tips aren't going to be against the trunk. I think a lot of us (me included) under fertilise our trees but everything to do with fertilising is a can of worms to open. Everyone has their own opinion and thoughts of how to do it and its not a one size fits all approach. It can depend on species, development stage and desired outcomes as to how much and what you use.

Root reduction is also species specific and age of plant. Some are tolerant of massive root reductions, others not so at all. Maples are the classic example of a species able to tolerate significant percentage of root removal provided the tree is healthy. I have removed 70% plus without issue on healthy young plants. It's a great benefit to building a good nebari. Starting with young material you get the opportunity to build a fantastic root base you don't get with collected or rough stock, so take advantage of the with doing the best toot work possible as early as possible

Yes for sure you may struggle with material in WA, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Air layering can be a significant tool for nursery stock transformations if you find a suitable garden tree at a nursery. Olives root freely from unbelievably thick branches and stumps with no roots whatsoever, ficus similarly root well as air layers of thick branches and if you are into natives then you will have heaps of species perfectly adapted to your climate in nurseries too.

Hah yes, I’m definitely a visual learner. Practical just works for me!

I recently root pruned my only Japanese maple after growing it for years. I think the nebari is quite good and it didn’t even skip a beat.

Air layering is something I haven’t tried yet. I know a lot of people do it over here but, Perth summers scare the hell out of me. I’d hate for it to dry out in a matter of hours. I’ll keep asking at the club what techniques people are using.

Thanks again Tim. Hugely appreciated mate