Potters techniques discussed

[Lynette]

I think there is some middle ground here and Pat is usually happt to help other perople, although I haven't spoken to him lately. He did do a demo on this method at a Newcastle so tiem ago and I didn't know it was on and missed it. He later expalained to me how he did it. Ther is no secret to how it is achieved. Janet De Boos did an explanation of how to achieve it in a magazine some time ago, and there is an explanation of how to achieve the cracking by three different means in one of the Americian pottery magazines. It think it was Pottery Making Illustrated. I have been taught a different method from all these by a Swiss potter, where the clay is heated and then stretched. Which ever method you use it takes a bit of practice to achieve it and then use it the way you want.
Arron has been to my workshops and has made some really nice pots and he had no experience before that and Brett has been working with some pottery ladiesin his home town. When you live some distance from nurseries etc., you have to try do some thing for your self to achieve some variation in you pots etc. Brett is always helpfull in any way,and is always willing to share any informaation he has, so why the supposed secrecy over a method that is know to potters world wide.
I will try and look up the magazines the informaatin is in and post it here later.
Wow penny $150 to fire a kiln, it must be huge.
Lynette

[anttal63]

if i may add my take on all of this and use my hairdressing as an example;

i have been cutting hair for 30 years now and am considered a master craftsman who can mix it with the best anywhere in the world. over the years i have seen staff walk in with average skills, take what they want and walk out a short time later mostly leaving you in the learch. some commit and immerse themselves for an honest amount of time and walk away accomplished hair stylists. i invest alot of money and time in people and the one consoling factor for me is that they can copy my techniques but they cannot duplicate my eye and my soul as an artist. therefor i give myself freely with no restraint. i love sharing what i know.

[PeterW]

Has nobody heard of copyright? In this day and age you can (apparently) copyright a colour! There is another term that springs to mind also "market edge", if i create a process or a system to achieve something that the market demands and i am profiting from my efforts, rest assured, theres no way on this earth i am going to give it to anybody to bastardise it and make themselves in a better position because of it. ITS MINE! Unless of course you are willing to put your money where your desire to cheat is.
Antonio's situation is a little different, if someone comes to work for him and he is a noted stylist, renowned throughout the country or world for that matter and someone comes to work for him for an extended period of time and then leaves, that person can take with him/her what skills they have been taught, and provided Antonio doesnt have them sign a declaration prior to employment, they are free to do as they wish with their new knowledge/skills.
Penny's situation is a set of processes that she has developed to give herself a "markets edge" and has no doubt cost her significantly to do so. If you doubt that, come and sit with me for a few hours and i will show you first hand how something similar to this can cost very large dollars. I would also dare to say that the people here suggesting that this information should be freely given out, hasn't ever commited the sort of dollars to either Research and Development or to invest in infrastructure to support and achieve your vision. Do that first then see if your opinions change.
Regards
Peter

[Joel]

Has nobody heard of copyright? In this day and age you can (apparently) copyright a colour! There is another term that springs to mind also "market edge", if i create a process or a system to achieve something that the market demands and i am profiting from my efforts, rest assured, theres no way on this earth i am going to give it to anybody to bastardise it and make themselves in a better position because of it. ITS MINE! Unless of course you are willing to put your money where your desire to cheat is.
Antonio's situation is a little different, if someone comes to work for him and he is a noted stylist, renowned throughout the country or world for that matter and someone comes to work for him for an extended period of time and then leaves, that person can take with him/her what skills they have been taught, and provided Antonio doesnt have them sign a declaration prior to employment, they are free to do as they wish with their new knowledge/skills.
Penny's situation is a set of processes that she has developed to give herself a "markets edge" and has no doubt cost her significantly to do so. If you doubt that, come and sit with me for a few hours and i will show you first hand how something similar to this can cost very large dollars. I would also dare to say that the people here suggesting that this information should be freely given out, hasn't ever commited the sort of dollars to either Research and Development or to invest in infrastructure to support and achieve your vision. Do that first then see if your opinions change.
Regards
Peter

I totally agree with everything stated above.

Penny's work is already copyrighted. Australian copyright laws state that copyright is automatic and free. It starts from when your work has been recorded physically. I.E. a photograph, a document etc.

I didn't actually read the info i was meant to when i signed up (sorry Steven) but im assuming there was a mentioning of copyright in it. If not, it may be illegal for you to quote what i am righting here. Perhaps i just committed a crime by quoting Peters comment? I doubt they will throw me in jail....

Penny, do whatever you like with your skills, techniques and especially your lichen glaze. Don't feel obliged to share information with anybody, and don't feel bad for protecting yourself....you are doing the right thing.

JayC

[PeterW]

Perhaps i just committed a crime by quoting Peters comment? I doubt they will throw me in jail....

Penny, do whatever you like with your skills, techniques and especially your lichen glaze. Don't feel obliged to share information with anybody, and don't feel bad for protecting yourself....you are doing the right thing.

JayC

Stay right were you are JayC, me and Steven are commin ta get ya! lol

[anttal63]

fair point guys i wont add to that other than pete i do know what it means to invest lots of money in systems. im just not that aggressive a buissness man, its about the art. and no im not renown around the world. sorry if i gave that impression it was not my intent.

[Bretts]

I was once told that copyright was only permision to go to court and that aint worth much. When we ask bonsaist to explain a technique do we hear the term copyright come up.
This is a Bonsai Forum and there are many of them. This seems to be because Bonsaists are very open with thier techniques and it creates alot of discussion. I have never been afraid to ask how something is done or what fertiliser is used or growing conditions or anything that I may think of from a fellow bonsaist.

I have found the culture in pottery circles(I should state this is not aimed at Pat in anyway) to be different. There are not really any forums that give out this information (not that I can find anyway) Although I have been taught many things from the Ladies(local pottery group) as I have affectionaly named them and other potters like Lynette and been to the occasional demonstation. But when I first thought of asking in the thread how the craked effect is done my first instinct was that It is taboo to ask questions like this of most potters. It makes me wonder why. I guess I am one of those "would be potter's" and If my pots were good enough that people wanted to buy them then what is wrong with that. It would be another Aussie potter for us. Not That I have much inclination in that way I just like the idea that I can make my own pots if I feel that way inclined.
As I stated in my first post on this, I was already told how to do the crack effect but I forgot before I got a chance to practice it and just the fact that I was not game to state who told me shows how I percieve the culture of pottery. The statements that I have recieved from some have all but reinforced my opinion. I am not asking for a buissness plan just how to make a pot.
Pottery is probably the oldest profession bar one So I wonder why all the secrecy.

Thanks Lynette that would be great. I hopefully will be able to make some time to try this soon. I have not had the clay out in a long time.

[mudlarkpottery]

My apologies, Soltan, I didn't know you were a professional nuseryman. I jumped right in with both feet then didn't I. I do freely give out information, but not everything, especially something I've spent up to two years developing and is my trademark glaze or whatever else. I know a lot of people can't see the difference between a handmade object and one churned out of a mould and begrudge paying a higher price. A lot of people also can't tell the difference between a well-made pot(object) and a badly made one. I've seen jugs where the handle isn't exactly opposite the spout, a "set" of six mugs, each one a different height and people accept that as part of "handmade" pottery. It is just bad workmanship. Take, for example bonsai pots. I have seen a lot with one or maybe two drainage holes but no wire holes. It doesn't take much time to put extra holes for wires but how many have them. Before you have a look at your own pots, try to remember just how many of yours do have wire holes. Something so simple can make such a big difference when you are wiring up a difficult tree. We potters outlay a lot of time, effort and money perfecting a technique or glaze so why should we be expected to give away all of that?
Penny.

[PeterW]

fair point guys i wont add to that other than pete i do know what it means to invest lots of money in systems. im just not that aggressive a buissness man, its about the art. and no im not renown around the world. sorry if i gave that impression it was not my intent.

Ant, you dont have to be an aggressive businessman to feel the need to protect whats yours. Its all about achieving your goals and not letting someone else come in under ou and sell you short! "Its about the art" sorry mate, not sure what you mean about that one. Please dont think i was implying that you gave me that suggestion that you were world renowned etc, you didnt, i was just hypothesizing to make a point, thats all. I completely respect and acknowledge your skill base at whatever level you are at. Anyway, how do you know you arnt world renowned......Hmmmmm!
Peter

[mudlarkpottery]

As Lynette says, that technique has been around a long time and I probably didn't explain it very well in my first post so I'll try again in more detail. Partially roll out your clay, sprinkle Ball Clay over it and then stretch it out by lifting it by the edge and flicking it forward as you drop it back on the board or table. It is something I get my students to do without the Ball Clay to make plates for themselves for domestic use.
Hi Lynette. The kiln is only about 9cu. ft. but when fuel prices went up so did LPG. Fuel prices have come down but not gas. I get an order for a crescent pot worth $15 and it costs me $150 to fire it. I make a kiln load though, but until it's all sold..........
Penny.

[mudlarkpottery]

Unfortunately, you can't copyright art so there's nothing stopping you painting another Mona Lisa. Now selling it would be a whole new ball game and if you sold it as the real thing, it's with intent to deceive which, obviously is either ludicrous or illegal (depending on you level of skill)
Penny.

[mudlarkpottery]

As I said in my original post, I will be doing a workshop for our club on these next year, probably April or May and will post photos (of course).
Penny.

[PeterW]

I was once told that copyright was only permision to go to court and that aint worth much. When we ask bonsaist to explain a technique do we hear the term copyright come up.
This is a Bonsai Forum and there are many of them. This seems to be because Bonsaists are very open with thier techniques and it creates alot of discussion. I have never been afraid to ask how something is done or what fertiliser is used or growing conditions or anything that I may think of from a fellow bonsaist.

I have found the culture in pottery circles(I should state this is not aimed at Pat in anyway) to be different. There are not really any forums that give out this information (not that I can find anyway) Although I have been taught many things from the Ladies(local pottery group) as I have affectionaly named them and other potters like Lynette and been to the occasional demonstation. But when I first thought of asking in the thread how the craked effect is done my first instinct was that It is taboo to ask questions like this of most potters. It makes me wonder why. I guess I am one of those "would be potter's" and If my pots were good enough that people wanted to buy them then what is wrong with that. It would be another Aussie potter for us. Not That I have much inclination in that way I just like the idea that I can make my own pots if I feel that way inclined.
As I stated in my first post on this, I was already told how to do the crack effect but I forgot before I got a chance to practice it and just the fact that I was not game to state who told me shows how I percieve the culture of pottery. The statements that I have recieved from some have all but reinforced my opinion. I am not asking for a buissness plan just how to make a pot.
Pottery is probably the oldest profession bar one So I wonder why all the secrecy.

Thanks Lynette that would be great. I hopefully will be able to make some time to try this soon. I have not had the clay out in a long time.

Soltan, you clearly just dont get it do you! If you were told that a copyright is only permission to go to court, think again and question the advise you are recieving. You are comparing a hobby to a job/carrier. You say when you ask a bonsaist to explain a technique you dont hear the term copyright come up. Mate...its a hobby, even proffesional bonsai nurserymen are still in the hobby industry! Your fellow bonsiaist that you refer to that you arn't afraid to ask a question of...tell me how much money last financial year did your fellow bonsiaist make from his techniques?
This is not only an issue within the pottery industry, the same applies to most industry. Did you not see or here about the struggle telstra went through to try and protect their infrastructure. Did you not here the battle between Crazy John's mobile phone company and Crazy Ron's mobile phone company? There has been literally thousands of examples for you to look up if you care to. I am sure those two examples didnt consider their copyright was just permission to go to court! I realize that i am upon my high horse over this but it is with good reason. I have had intellectual property stolen from me and i estimate that it cost me in access of 30K and over 12 months worth of work for myself and one of my employees. That was 10 years ago. It wont happen again.
Regards
Peter

[mudlarkpottery]

What a bummer, Peter. No wonder you feel so strongly about it. I've been ripped off too but not to that extent! It makes you wary, doesn't it, of the motives of some people.
Penny.

[Pup]

I do not have an axe to grind on this one. I do agree if you want to protect something. That you make or have written it is your right to do so.
If you are teaching apprentices, as I have done over my years as a tradesman I cannot claim anything other than you have done well young man ( when I was still working and teaching there were no girls doing apprenticeships in the metal industry )
I am very proud to have taught them.
Bonsai Masters for want of a better expression serve apprenticeships and as such are tradespeople. They then pass on there skills to the next apprentice or people that are willing to learn.
In Bonsai there are a lot of instances of Copyright infringement be they of images or of Book Titles.
So if you wish to keep something back in my opinion for what it is worth do so you do not have to justify it to any one. Pup