AusBonsai

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 2:42 pm**

Bretts wrote:It just doesn't seem right

i know what ya mean, but if it produces results then it produces results, we will have to see how it all goes, it will be interesting if more people do it to see the success rates. nothing against you graeme i am sure you have had great success but obviously some loss.

i dunno how its going yet, i have had them potted in there for about an hour now, i havent gone out and checked as i might lose an eye possibly

jamie

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 2:46 pm**

in a different world we may use tree drugs? like designer chemicals for bonsais! id like to see a hydroponic bonsai and i am going to do it first it seems!!
peace
luke

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 2:52 pm**

Sorry to burst ya bubble Liqued Luke but Hydroponic bonsai has already been done. I think our Mate Jerry Meislik from Montana USA was the pioneer ofthe hydro setup for bonsai and at least a couple have followed.
Asus was talking about it but he does that alot

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 3:49 pm**

Would this method work with Elms?

I have just (few weeks ago) put one into a grow box to thicken the trunk before going the chop to for a Broom style. I'm wondering it this would be a prime candidate?

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 4:10 pm**

i was just thinking actually the same thing with another species sime, i am wondering about junipers actually, shimpaku to be more precise?
i cant see why it wouldnt work with elms but i think it would depend on your climate, if you are located in a cooler climate it would need to go into its usual dormancy period. so you might be ok using it as a method during the growing seasone but it wouldnt be taking in nutrients during the dormancy? thats my thoughts anyways

jamie

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 4:13 pm**

you gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jimmy!!!

talk about waste no time

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 4:18 pm**

anttal63 wrote:you gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jimmy!!!

talk about waste no time

well mate theres no time like the present and if i didnt run out of the dynamic lifter and gravel i would of had another basket filled up and going aswell

i just went out and had a look too, its been raining here a fair bit today and i dont know but it the willow leaf is looking mighty fine

jamie

Posted: **December 28th, 2009, 10:45 pm**

Graeme wrote:Jamie has asked to many times if I would post this, so Here goes. No pics sorry, a, I am not that clever yet (to post them) and b, I don't have any (I dont think)
I have used this method in Darwin, Sale (Vic), Perth and now have 2 trees under cultivation here - maybe I should take some pic's of those .
I recently told Jamie my method would be sure to generate discussion as it is fairly unbelievable, but pup has sort of confirmed (unknowingly) the system works in one of his posts under the "Do we under fertilise" thread. As he said in that post, it is possible to take cuttings/tubestock to 100mm trunked trees in 4 years and a lot less time as well. Only problem is that you really do need to work on the trees constantly.

So to it: Get hold of a large styrene box, and cut as many holes in the bottom as you can, without the bottom breaking. I usually get around 30 holes, each about 30x30mm, but you can make them larger if you like. Cover each hole with individual pieces of mesh, same as a Bonsai Pot.
Now put in a layer of 3 to 7 mm grit. I have used anything up to 10mm by the way. Only mentioned 3to 7 çause thats what everyone adds to their potting medium isn't it This layer should be around 50mm deep.
Now over the grit spread a layer of Pellitized Chook Poo (you know the one) To measure out this layer I use a 100mm flower pot and I put 4 of them in.
Now put 2 pots of Blood and Bone over the Chook Poo, followed by 2 pots of Pelletised slow release fertiliser (again you should know the one).
Lightly mix the three layers together, trying not to disturb the grit layer. (you need that it place to hold all the fertiliser in place, otherwise it will just run straight out the drainage holes when you water)
Now place a hard flat object (I used a lino square) on top of the fertilser. The piece I use is usually about 200mm square, but size isn't important - just make sure there is enough gap around the edges to let the roots get to the fertilizer. Next place a thin layer of grit over the lino, to cushion the roots and place your tree on top of this grit. Spread the roots radially around the trunk and then spread another layer of grit over the top of the roots, leaving about 50mm to the top of the box
Now, fill the rest of the box with Dynamic Lifter, oops pelletised Chook Poo, and water in well. I have found it is beneficial to water again a couple of times as the Chook poo takes up a lot of the water.
Place the tree out in full sun and water as often as necessary.
Now as we need to fertilise our trees regularly what you should do is refill the box with Chik Poo Weekly. Pup's mate scraps the Poo off every week and replaces it, but with this method there usually isnt anything left on the soil surface at the end of the week as it leaches down through the box. I also throw in a good serve of Blood and Bone at the start of each season and if feeling generous will throw in a couple of handfulls of the pelletised slow release as well then. The trees also get regular foliar feed with whatever I have in the watering can as well. In Darwin I grew Orchids, so the Bonsai got that fertiliser as well
You will find over time you get quite a bit of fertiliser under the box, which can be scooped out and used on the lawn or elsewhere as it will still be working.
I have used this method to grow some very large trunked Ficus Rubiginosa, Green Island, Little boy (although you do loose the small leaves) Willow Leaf fig, I have also used it to grow Hibiscus, although the flower size will frighten you . I was also growing an Azalea using this method, however it "passed away" following a watering mishap so not sure of the long term viability for this species.
Two things to watch if giving this a try. First, do not neglect watering and secondly keep the root pruning up. Roots will quickly escape the box and get into the ground and we need to keep all the roots in the box so the tree remains being force fed. Trees will need to be rootpruned yearly as the box will fill with course thick roots quickly and the tree will need to be top pruned daily once it gets going. Dont worry about leaf size, although I did defoliate mine 4 or five times a year - just so I could keep an eye on the trunk developement and direction.
As I said in the beginning, this will (hopefully) generate a bit of discussion, but it does work. You will also notice there is absolutely NO soil of any kind involved in this method of growing trees fast.

Thats facinating and great idea. Gives me alot more food for thought now for root over rock style. Thanx.

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 11:28 am**

Great thread ,will try on all my figs I think maybe give the elms ago as well and should work well on celtis ,will post pics
Cheers

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 2:27 pm**

If i put 3 tube stock in this one box would this be too much for 1 year. I would seperate them in the 2nd year in a box of their own. Also, That basket in the picture what kind of botom does it have.

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 2:55 pm**

This is a great thread, and an interesting idea! It's like putting the bonsai on steroids!
I might pick up a few smaller ficus soon and try it out I think! Might have to try in a larger, but not as large, pot, rather than a styro box, as they seem to be a bit hard to come across over my way :/
One question.. Do we think it would work with pines? I have a radiator I'd love to get some size into. It's only very small tube stock.

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 2:59 pm**

Graeme,
Nice to see you are on-line, I remember seeing you speak at a Brisbane convention on fertilizing.
As well as getting excited about fast growth, three instructions need to be highlighted!

1. Work on the trees constantly

2. Root prune regularly

3. Top prune daily.

Good luck "team fastgrow", I look forward to seeing the results.
Happy New Year,
BonsaiBruce

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 3:23 pm**

if your pruning constantly then why would you use this method?
This method seems more suited to thicken of trunks and branches. Branch thickening I can understand keeping other growth in check, but otherwise, you would need to to grow freely. You may need to repot each year, due to the break down of the growing medium chosen, but again if you want growth it would be better not to stress the plant out by severe root pruning.

Bretts wrote:
Asus was talking about it but he does that alot

Excuse me? I do what now?

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 3:57 pm**

Woah lots of interest here from tghe looks of it guys. Let me see if I can answer your queries for you;
1. Jamie, you might want to rethink the 2 trees, 1 box bit mate. The growth you will be getting shortly is going to make it very difficult to manage both trees and repotting will be a proper, well hard job.

an aside to the box your using as well, recently I repoted a couple of trees, one of which was in a styrene box, the other in a black plastic box of about the same size, which I got from the big green shed

. The styrene box was near full of roots while the plastic one had hardly any roots to speak of. Both trees where roughly the same age and had received the same amount of care. While nothing is proved conclusively, it does begger the question.

Webos wrote:Gday guys,
Very interesting method. One question...how do the trees go with internode length? with all of that super-fast growth, I would imagine the internode length could become quite long.

I only ever grow my trees in full sun. I have not had problem with internode length using this method, but then I am constantly trimming the branches as they grow as well.

Bretts wrote:Now put 2 pots of Blood and BoneWhat amount are we talking about ?

Sorry mate, all measurements are 100mm flower pots, so it's 2 100mm pots of B & B.

Asus wrote:You wouldn't use this method on refinement growth....

Spot on mate, I don't think you could keep up with the growth well enough to do any sort of refinement.

jamie wrote:nothing against you graeme i am sure you have had great success but obviously some loss.

Sorry cobber, but I have never had a tree die while under this type of training (thats probably put a mocker on it now!), but having said that, I have only ever done figs and a couple of Hibiscus. not sure how you others will get on with other types of trees, but my guess is as long as the tree is a gross feeder all should be well.

Sime76 wrote:Would this method work with Elms?

As above, I have not tried an Elm, but from my experience the Elms do not appreciate the totally open mix used with this method and to use a heavier medium risks toxisity from the amount of fertiliser involved. I guess nothing ventured nothing gained tho. Just dont try it with your best tree.

Jamie wrote:i am wondering about junipers actually, shimpaku to be more precise

Same goes for you Jamie, sorry, not a lot of help here.

Edweard S/hands wrote:Gives me alot more food for thought now for root over rock style. Thanx.

Now your talking, who wants to wait years for a tree to get a good grip on a rock? This works well for RoR style Bonsai. Get a lid with your styrene box, tape box and lid together, cut out the end of the box and plant tree in upright box. Make sure you support the box so it can't blow over tho'.

Bundyfisher wrote:Great thread ,will try on all my figs I think maybe give the elms ago as well and should work well on celtis ,will post pics
Cheers

Mate, your post reminds me of a story I heard about a Bonsai nut in South Africa, who after attending one of Dot's lectures on Potting Medium went home and repotted his entire collection into the mix she recommended. He started a whole new collection a short time later. Dot's system just didn't work for him in his situation so please try One of your figs first

. As for the Elms, read my answer to Sime76's post above. And as for the Celtis, somewhere in the back of my grey sponge I seem to remember someone in Victoria doing this to one and got good results, so maybe worth a try - not much to loose anyhow

NathanM wrote:Might have to try in a larger, but not as large, pot, rather than a styro box, as they seem to be a bit hard to come across over my way :/

The system will work in any container, as long as there is total drainage. If the container holds any "pooled" water the mix WILL become toxic and the plant will suffer/die. Styrene boxes are out there, become friendly with someone in either the Veg Dept or fresh Seafood Dept (Or both

) of you grocery shop and find out what days they get there fresh produce in. If they know you want them they will probably keep some aside for you.

Thanks for the words B/Bruce. I think you might find the Fertilizer presentation was at Coffs Harbour mate, don't think I have ever done anything at Brisbane - Yet . Your advice is spot on as well and all you "fastgrowers" out there would do well to head the advice, especially 1. and 3., Bruce isn't kidding. One other thing to remember, with a fig under this type of cultivation there is NO dormancy, although they do slow down just a small tad sometimes.

Just to clear up the origins of this system as well guys, the technique was told to me by a South Australian Bonsai enthusiast, who was told of it by a Victorian Bonsai grower. It isn't mine, but I know it works because I have seen it and done it myself. Good Luck and happy growing....................

Posted: **December 29th, 2009, 6:31 pm**

Great post Graeme.

Edward, when I plant root over rock, I use a heap (not quite 100%) dynamic lifter at the bottom of the large black pot.
Generally I take the chook poo up to the level of the rock and from there up I use any old soil.

Two reasons, the first being like Graeme suggests is that the figs are on a massive dose of steroids.
The second reason: using soil from the base of the rock and above is because I only want root growth downwards.
The two distinct separate layers ensure the roots don’t get confused and do anything silly like grow upwards

Only one direction, downwards and then at a great rate of knots.

I have commented about this elsewhere, but try horse bandage tape instead of plastic to wrap the roots and rock. In my opinion you will get a better and faster result.

Regards
Steve

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