Toads

[gollum]

Hey all. I don't wanna get my conservation biologist hat on, especially on a weekend, but can I just ask that if people are going to kill the toads you do it as humanely as possible?

Like I said, I'm a conservation biologist, so I hate what they're doing to the native wildlife as much as anyone and want to see them completely eradicated. But it really isn't the toads' fault they were brought here by dimwitted people who didn't have any scientific justification to warrant their introduction.

It makes me cringe every time I hear of someone killing one with a golf club or a car. I've worked with them in pracs and they're actually quite charming despite all appearances. I hate the effect they're having, but please consider that it is a living animal worthy of as much respect as any of you.

And yes, their system shuts down at 5 degrees (C), hence why the freezer works and why they'll never make it is south as my home town.

nicely said... just because they are a pest doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with respect
please consider the freezer option they can't contaminate anything from inside a plastic bag
at least think about the karma before you reach for the dettol

[Rhiannon]

Just thought I'd clear something up about the freezer option. It's important that you put them in the fridge for 12 hours first (set to at least 4 degrees), preferably inside a container or in a plastic bag inside a container (with air holes). This allows them to cool gradually to a point where they are no longer able to metabolise. AFTER that, they should be put in the freezer for at least 24, preferably 48 (-20 degrees), which will then euthanise them. Ice crystals will form in the intracellular fluid and puncture the walls of that cell, meaning that once removed and thawed it will not be able to regain consciousness.

The sudden change of temperature caused by throwing them straight in the freezer without first cooling them in the fridge is incredibly stressful for them and not the nicest way to go. At no point should the toad's body come into contact with a frozen surface.

Just remember, under the Queensland Animal Care and Protection Act, it is illegal to be cruel to any animal, including cane toads. If someone sees you whacking one and dobs you in, you could find yourself in a lot of hot water.

Oh, and I know a lot of people freak out about cane toad toxin and say you should wear gloves etc etc, but I've handled these guys numerous times in prac without gloves or glasses and have never had a problem. Mind you, on one occasion we were even injecting them with vasotocin and this wasn't even enough to cause them enough stress to eject toxin. As long as they aren't physically stressed, nor vigorously handled, they won't eject any toxin. The reason they are so dangerous to pets is because animals like dogs pick the toads up and shake them. The toads actually need quite a lot of pressure to the shoulder region (where the glands are) before they'll secrete toxin, so you can handle them without protection if you wish.

[kvan64]

I'm not sure if this was the work of some ferrow cats but I found 2 dead toads yesterday morning and another one this morning. Note that it was raining both nights. Was wondering if the weather changes did something if it wasn't the cats.

[Chris]

I was just watching GNW (good news week) and there is a solution to this dreaded Cane toad. There is an company in Queensland that is going to do some business with china. The cane toads poison can be used for headache potion and the meat they turn into a frog jerky. So this is good news for all you Queenslanders and territorians as you can catch the frog and trad them in for cach $$$. Same as we sotherners cash in cans for ten cents a can.

so there ya go the cane toad's days are numbered.

[Greth]

Ive worked with Cane Toads at Uni as well, Rhiannon, don't think cute was the word which came to mind, however is personal taste there.
There is a problem with that too, we have had toads escape from the Uni (not my class) and there has been a huge panic trying to track them down, in case they survived.
What I can't understand is how it is legal to kill a fish by whatever means you choose, but cruel to kill a pest species like cane toads by some quick and effective means such as crushing. When I become world president you can run over all the cane toads you like, or hit them with golf clubs, as long as they die first shot.
Ah, Chris, your post crossed mine, maybe you can have a turn as World President first.

[Chris]

What I can't understand is how it is legal to kill a fish by whatever means you choose, but cruel to kill a pest species like cane toads by some quick and effective means such as crushing

i suppose we are lucky we don't have camels jumping fences

[OwnLeeOne]

I definitly dont feel the need to treat them nicely, especially when they are competing with the green tree frogs, lizards etc around the house. My lil jack russell used to get hold of them and nearly killed him many times. Would be good if the cane toads n asain house geckos could wipe eachother out somehow. They also kill alot of snakes and all kinds of other natives that try eat them. I think treating pests with respect is a bit weird..How does fly spray, pesticide work? Peas

[Greth]

According to the law, invertebrates and fish have no rights to kindness. The higher vertebrates do, whether worthy or not. I dont understand why fish are excluded from the rights extended to the rest of the vertebrates, but they are.
Im not vegetarian, I do ensure that meat species are killed for my table, also plant species. Ive even met the sheep which became tonights dinner, and the herbs which dressed it were also personal friends. But I know it was killed as quickly and kindly as possible, it was less than 100 metres away from where I sit now (The herbs were closer)

[Joel]

I have been approached by a member of the public and yelled at for killing an organism. I was at work at the time, and i was really blood thirsty, so i couldn't help it. This person saw what i did and started yelling at me. After i told her i had to, she swore at me and walked a bit further back. I continued my onslaught. Destroying these things was fun to me. I just had to do it. But she caught me in the act again, and decided that enough was enough. She picked up fallen branches and rocks and hurled them at me. I had to get assistance to get her removed from the area.

My crime? I pulled out a few weeds. Each to their own huh?

Joel

[Waltron]

What I can't understand is how it is legal to kill a fish by whatever means you choose, but cruel to kill a pest species like cane toads by some quick and effective means such as crushing. When I become world president you can run over all the cane toads you like, or hit them with golf clubs, as long as they die first shot.

I'll vote for you Greth.

[Rhiannon]

I don't believe I used the word "cute"? They certainly aren't visually appealing.


Sure, they are pests, but why are they pests? Because of the worst exotic species ever introduced to this continent: us.

We as humans are incredibly speciest. Would you club a brumby to death? If your answer is no, then why not? They are a pest and are doing an incredible amount of damage to the local wildlife. What about native pests? Koalas on French Island are an introduced species and have reached plague proportions and are eating themselves and the native species there out of house and home. Dingoes are classified pests across most areas of Australia. Should we club them, too?

I'm sorry, but to treat them with cruelty simply because they endeavour to exist is completely barbaric. Their effect on natives is horrible, but it's our fault and not theirs. They didn't pack their bags and fly over here with a malicious intent to destroy native species. If you can't see that, then I feel a great amount of sorrow for any toad that crosses your path.

[Greth]

Gee thanks Waltron, only 5 billion votes to go, then Bonsai shall be taught in all schools, all kindy kids shall be issued with their own trowel and bucket. All men shall wear cool pirate shirts open to the waist, do dishes and change nappies. Policemen shall be required to buy you coffee and cake before issuing a ticket for anything, from their own money. (that will make them stop and think)
Civil servants will be required to be civil. Banks can be grateful for handling your money, and reward you accordingly. Similarly insurance companies. All terrorists will be required to attend anger mangement classes, and learn to deal with their inner demons.
And Sundays will be sacred to barbecues, family outings, cricket or football or tennis within season, and single mums will earn what they deserve.

[Greth]

Rhiannon, in a totally different mood to my last post, because you have asked some serious questions.
Yes, people are responsible for introducing this pest, it is wholly our fault, not theirs, they have just done what comes naturally and breed.
And they are just a toady thing, didn't mean any harm.
The problem is this, either they are exterminated here, they can continue to live in their native lands, and that has to be done faster than they breed, or we lose native species forever. It is a very serious situation, and I dont think that gentleness will help.
Unless you have some marvellous way of attracting them all to one point and then exporting them en masse, I don't see how else they are gonna go. (Im not trying to be rude to you here, but they must be got rid of, and fast) or we have to live with them and accept that our native species are extinct. Cane toads will continue to exist for many millenia, some of our native species might have 10 years or less with this competition. Toss a coin, which needs to be preserved?
And think about how you use the word 'club' of course that sounds cruel, but is it really better to die slowly in a freezer, feeling your life ebb away as you freeze? Do you think poison would be kinder? Or starvation, which is what faces the Kangaroo Island koalas, they have eaten all the trees but noone dares kill them. A few are being saved by being captured, sterilized and exported, but most just die after the trees. There simply is nowhere near enough money to save each little darling individually.
Ive studied ecosystems, Ive heard the experts, and in this case because there are just so many, because we havent time or the resources to do anything nicer, because something must be done immediately, Im prepared to ask for a harsher and quicker solution.

[Rhiannon]

Greth, make no mistake, I want them gone. Now. I hate them. I'm also speciest. It is my life's mission to save the native fauna. It's my career, as well as my hobby. I will do it both inside and outside of work for as long as I am still breathing. But it is not fair to kill cane toads cruelly.

I'll make this clear: I have no issue with the use of blunt force trauma to euthanise a cane toad s'long as it is done by someone who knows what they are doing and can ensure that the first blow renders it unconscious. But how many general members of the public are experts at blunt force trauma? How many people who club toads have to go back for a second, or a third, or a fourth hit? Or worse, let it slowly succumb to its injuries because they either don't care or can't recognise that fact that the first blow wasn't enough?

A few days ago, a policemen photographed putting a kangaroo with a severely broken leg out of its misery sparked wide critcism. Why? Because it took 2 shots to kill it. I wonder how many of those people would advocate death to a cane toad by means of having to hit it several times. Probably most. The hypocrisy saddens me.

I want the cane toads that live here dead, just like you do. But I don't want them to suffer. Humans have caused enough suffering to species world wide as it is.

I know my little spiel probably won't change anyone's mind, but (and this is how I incessantly get myself into so many animal rights debates) I can't sit back and read things being said here and not feel compelled to speak for those without a voice, to not feel sad at the total disregard for an animal's life just because they're a human-made problem.


As far as the well-being of our natives are concerned and in response to the "how else are they gonna go" part, we're making progress. It's too slow, but it's something. I won't go into the detail now as this post is far too long as is, but the point is that a) some of the natives are evolving (both behaviourally and physiologically) to deal with the toad, and b) we're working on a genetic counter strike which may be able to rid the toads entirely, which is hoped to be up and running soon. There is hope for the future. As much as we think the killing of individual toads will help the natives, studies have shown how little benefits our efforts have. We'll never eradicate them that way.

EDIT: In response to the part you edited after I started replying, the cooling method is seen as much more humane and is advocated by animal rights groups such as the RSPCA because it causes the toads no pain. As I detailed before, they shouldn't be thrown straight in the freezer because that is cruel. As they cool, they simply start to feel groggy until they fall into a deep sleep and don't wake up. The sensation is the same as using an OD of anaesthetic like a vet would, except it operates on a longer time scale (usually about 60 minutes). The most humane way of killing them, the way I would use, is not readily available to the public, so this is seen as the best alternative.

[Greth]

I really hope that a better solution is on the way, but these are the same people who brought us the cane toad as a solution to the cane beetle problem, because we introduced sugar cane.
Maybe we should roll back and stop trying to grow sugar in a land where it doesn't belong?