boredom to bonsai- a cheap starter tree for beginners

[Pup]

Jamie I hope your welding is better than your wiring.
If you buy a $ 30 -00 tree you can do the same, but you need to know what you are doing, so progresive shots are the order of the day.

Just my opinion cheers Pup

[Jamie]

as i said before after i looked at it again the wiring is very embarassing. i am going to a nursery today/tomorrow, not sure yet and i can get a decent bit of starting stock that i will take progressive shots of.

jamie

ps. i dont know what was going on that day with the wiring but my welding is much better than that joke for wiring

[Bretts]

i do however however completly agree with what you have said about getting them to grow on in ground or in grow boxes. at a beginner stage though it is also good to have something that you can look at or work on in a pot while these trees are gaining size and age.

This is an important point Jamie. For years it was hard for a newb to get any advice except stick it in a bigger pot when posting a tree like this.
A beginer needs a tree like this in a pot to experiment with to learn how to care for a tree in a bonsai pot. Anyone that has Bonsai for Beginers by Craig Coussins will see the stick in a pot he started with turned into a great little tree and never left the bonsai pot.
I so wish the original IBC was still up and running because I always got a laugh when I went back to look at the Mallsai I created out of a $8 hawthorn starter from Ray. I wanted to know if I could get the lower branches to thicken in relation to the upper branches but was only told to put it in the ground to grow out.

Allas a year or so later I put it in the ground and it grew bugger all for 3 years until I pulled it out of the ground last spring and the fungus ate it
Just got me thinking though. Thats a hawthorn starter from Ray. That means he is propagating them from cuttings. Hawthorn are supposed to not work from cuttings? I have a double pink hawthorn that I want cuttings off. Might have to start a thread

[Ron]

...Mallsai ..

A 'Bonsai'bought in a shopping mall

[Mojo Moyogi]

Jamie I hope your welding is better than your wiring.

Jamie, if you fork out for the plane ticket, come down to my place and I will hold you hostage until the wiring looks absolutely textbook.
My wife has just barked that I should tell you that I am a very impatient and grumpy teacher, but I am results driven!


Mojo

[Mojo Moyogi]

ps. on a serious note, i do agree that the mallsai sellers really need to stop selling these seedlings in pots, passing them off as bonsai and making a fortune of these poor people...

I would argue that trying to convince sellers to part with their wicked ways is futile. Bonsai enthusiasts around the country that know better, need to educate newbies to not buy that crap in the first place, dealing with the demand for, rather than the supply of junk bonsai. I wish somebody had steered me in the right direction early on, I spent the better part of 4 years filling my benches with rubbish trees and practicing bad habits.

Who knows, if we push hard enough, maybe the suppliers of retail bonsai will wise up and produce better trees, we all bitch about shortages of quality raw material, people who have a passion for bonsai have to drive quality upwards, we can't expect the bonsai retailers to move away from an easy option that always brought in money, that would be crazy and is very bad practice.

One thing that business will do is follow the market, if we encourage the inexperienced among us, whether it is here or at club level, to reject the junk and demand more from the trees that they buy, surely this will prompt vendors to produce quality trees.

That is the mission experienced bonsai folk. Who's onboard?

Mojo Moyogi

[Mojo Moyogi]

Just got me thinking though. Thats a hawthorn starter from Ray. That means he is propagating them from cuttings. Hawthorn are supposed to not work from cuttings? I have a double pink hawthorn that I want cuttings off. Might have to start a thread

I have grown from cuttings: Washingtom Hawthorn (Crataegus phaenopyrum), Japanese Hawthorn (Crataegus cuneata) and the cultivar 'Paul's Scarlet' both for semi-hardwood and hardwood.

Cheers
Mojo Moyogi

[Ron]

..... maybe the suppliers of retail bonsai will wise up and produce better trees...

I've spoken to a couple of nursery suppliers about this. As a newbie, what I see in the retail shops not only hurts their business name which is on the trees and starters, but it's also likely to have a negative impact on potential Bonsai devotees - one because the plant dies and two: if the retail customer does go on and finally visits a Bonsai nursery like I did, they'll realise they were really diddled during the early part of the their Bonsai education not just on price but on quality too.

[Bretts]

Thanks Mojo. I just got off the Phone to Ray and he agreed they are a hard one but he is a persistant bugger and doesn't read books that tell him they can't be done
He has done hawthorn in December with semi hardwood.

I was keen to try some hardwood over winter with bottom heat. Can you give any more details on how you got success?

[craigw60]

I guess the biggest problem for retailers is the length of time it takes to produce quality pre bonsai material. In these days of instant everything no one seems to be able to put in the 5-10 yrs required to produce something close to a bonsai starter. Then there is the problem of cost. You put a great deal of time and effort into growing a tree how much do you charge for it, what is the skill it takes to produce these plants worth.I think one of the best results would occur if backyarders grew a few extra trees and marketed them through the clubs. This would provide quality stock to the really keen growers. There will always be a market for the crappy little trees so often seen around the traps. People like to buy them for presents etc.
At my nursery I have a bit of pre bonsai stock around which I think is pretty reasonably priced given the years I have put into them so many people just walk away when I quote them on a plant. The only people who really appreciate the effort are the serious bonsai types. Most people have no idea of the concept of preparing a tree for bonsai cultivation.
Craig

[Bretts]

I am happy with our vendors in NSW. We have a great range from large trunks that need further work to trunks that are ready for branches to More developed trees.
Not much to complain about here but there is always room for improvment.

[Ron]

I am happy with our vendors in NSW. We have a great range from large trunks that need further work to trunks that are ready for branches to More developed trees.
Not much to complain about here but there is always room for improvment.

I think you're spot on there, Brett. Certainly how I feel after several visits to the Vineyard/Dural area. However, it's the low quality,high priced stuff that new suckers like me buy from Bunnings etc that don't do the reputation of Bonsai a lot of good. If I hadn't made the effort (several times now) to go to Bonsai nurseries, I'm not really sure how I would feel about it all.

I guess the fact that did go answers that I guess.

Just remembered! When I was a teenager, or perhaps in my young 20s, my mum gave me a Bonsai (can't remember any details 'cause that's at least 40 years ago). It was sold as indoor plant and I remember it sitting on the window shelf near my desk. Naturally it died. I guess with proper instructions or some research on my part I might've got into Bonsai 40 years ago!!! Well, that's spilt milk now ...

Ron

[Jamie]

...Mallsai ..

A 'Bonsai'bought in a shopping mall

ron a mallsai is a "bonsai" that has little or no effort put into it and are produced at a mass level, they generally look all the same and for an example the "S" bend shaped chinese elm, they are a true cookie cutter like tree which is a name used for trees that all look the same, mallsai are generally all packed in with crap soil and have some sort of covering on the soil, usually glued stones and a figurine to suck the poor people that dont know any different in to buy a bonsai that will eventually die but it looks good at time of purchase.

ps. on a serious note, i do agree that the mallsai sellers really need to stop selling these seedlings in pots, passing them off as bonsai and making a fortune of these poor people...

I would argue that trying to convince sellers to part with their wicked ways is futile. Bonsai enthusiasts around the country that know better, need to educate newbies to not buy that crap in the first place, dealing with the demand for, rather than the supply of junk bonsai. I wish somebody had steered me in the right direction early on, I spent the better part of 4 years filling my benches with rubbish trees and practicing bad habits.

Who knows, if we push hard enough, maybe the suppliers of retail bonsai will wise up and produce better trees, we all bitch about shortages of quality raw material, people who have a passion for bonsai have to drive quality upwards, we can't expect the bonsai retailers to move away from an easy option that always brought in money, that would be crazy and is very bad practice.

One thing that business will do is follow the market, if we encourage the inexperienced among us, whether it is here or at club level, to reject the junk and demand more from the trees that they buy, surely this will prompt vendors to produce quality trees.

That is the mission experienced bonsai folk. Who's onboard?

Mojo Moyogi

im definately on board with that, i think you have hit it well, not trying to change the sellers but to convince the people that these sort of mallsai trees are not what bonsai is about.
and yes a business will follow a market to where the money is and if we can get them to increase there quality then that would be great, it will be a very long process though.
as for getting a ticket down as much as i would love to visit i think i can punish myself enough on the wiring until i get it perfected, not giving an excuse but to sort of try and save face i think i did this after a 70 od hours of insomnia which continued for another couple of days after that.

I guess the biggest problem for retailers is the length of time it takes to produce quality pre bonsai material. In these days of instant everything no one seems to be able to put in the 5-10 yrs required to produce something close to a bonsai starter. Then there is the problem of cost. You put a great deal of time and effort into growing a tree how much do you charge for it, what is the skill it takes to produce these plants worth.I think one of the best results would occur if backyarders grew a few extra trees and marketed them through the clubs. This would provide quality stock to the really keen growers. There will always be a market for the crappy little trees so often seen around the traps. People like to buy them for presents etc.
At my nursery I have a bit of pre bonsai stock around which I think is pretty reasonably priced given the years I have put into them so many people just walk away when I quote them on a plant. The only people who really appreciate the effort are the serious bonsai types. Most people have no idea of the concept of preparing a tree for bonsai cultivation.
Craig

i can completely understand this craig, time is a very valuable thing for sure, and you as a business and being a small nursery i must ask, do you put these mallsai sort of trees out? or do you put something a little better than that for a "starter bonsai" i get the feeling you would have something a little better than a 2-3 year old struck cutting in a pot with glued on stones in a clay soil that doesnt train for sure.
i think you have raised a very interesting idea about back yard growers and getting better trees on the market instead of the crap we see pop up in stores like bunnings and the likes. i myself have a lot of stuff growing on and i am taken heaps of cuttings and trying propagation, and some of this will be for my own personal use obviously but i do intend on once they are at a decent size to be moving them on at reasonable prices. if everyone done this and took them into there clubs for the likes of the newbs then i think the interest in bonsai would increase, and it would only strengthen the bonsai scene as the newbs would get decent trees to start with and then they will move onto wanting bigger and better and the bonsai nurseries will profit from this aswell as the newb will become more experienced with better quality and will want better quality or size and be confident in buying the more expensive trees!

this thread has really gone into something that i wasnt expecting but it has in a good way moved forward to show that there are people that care about this art and want to see it move forward and not back, i think we will eventually get there as it increases in popularity and grows in australia

thank you to every one that has gotten in on this thread and put forward your opinions

jamie

ps. if i have missed anyone i was supposed i am sure i will get back to you later as i am in the car at this point of time and its hard to type and read

[Pup]

M M's comment of education is what we as Bonsai enthusiasts should be concentrating on. It should start at all levels. Most of all in the clubs, and here we get a lot of people here asking questions ( Brett knows what I refer to ) we try very hard to educate them, that Bonsai is a work in progress. Like your children you want them to succeed so you help them. Never letting them take on more than they can handle well. That way they get better too many different project's when you are learning, is not the right way.
I remember a comment many years ago by a person that had been taught by Dorothy and Vita Koreshoff( the late Bert Humphries ) we were not allowed to touch a tree for the first term. I thought that was harsh, but understand now.
We have member's in our club that when I started 25 years ago I asked question's of. Now they ask me, I roll my eyes and think what is wrong, do you not understand.
You only get out of it what you put in.
Sitting around sipping tea and saying I do Bonsai does not get it done.

So we have to educate, where ever we can I try hard to see, that I can do that. Bearing in mind we all had to start somewhere.
I will admit if I had the resources that are available now. I would have Better tree's than I have at the moment. Some are good some are very good. They could have been better sooner with the right information. So lets get on board and instead of putting down the crap as a good start. Say it like it is all people need is a something to aim for. I chastised my Grand children when they said there Bonsai was alive and doing well. It is a cycad in a Bonsai pot I gave them. It is not a Bonsai.
So let us start saying it is not a Bonsai. When it is not, then teach them what is. I know it will be very very hard because the general Public do not want to know that is why Mallsai flourish. We are after the genuine beginner and someone who is worth the trouble we as Teachers are willing to put in.

OFF my soapbox now cheers Pup

[craigw60]

Hi Jamie,
My Nursery is a rare plants nursery not bonsai so the trees are just surplus to my requirements. I consider that prebonsai take a minimum of 5 years but usually more like 10 so no there is no crappy little things around here. A really good bonsai nursery would need to be an inter-generational thing so there is time to build a stock of very high quality trees, I would guess that will happen in time here in Aus.
Craig