AusBonsai

sreeve wrote:Were you making the pleats in the hope of getting the roots to come from the end of the pleat and by doing so, get a headstart on flare?

Or another reason I could think of would be to open up a lot more of the cambium layer and therefore improve the success rate of the layer?

Gday Steve!

The main aim of the pleats is to create taper at the base of the layer, but a side effect is the exposure of more of the cambium, as you mentioned.

Thanks.

Fly.

way to go blood !!!

FlyBri wrote:More to come...

Sorry folks... I was in the process of taking four angles when my camera's batteries died.

Hey Fly Nice work. Took me a while to find this thread even though I had been keeping up with your progress over Xmas.
In your PM you state that these guys air layer well all year as long as they are growing well. Yet they can't be removed too close to winter.
I am keen to try this as a collecting tool of some interesting gums growing through rocks on the dry side of a dam as well as improving the bases of the ones I have at home.

I think I better use the last of this season to experiment with mine at home as leaving the layers on out in the wild is fraught with danger from the local natives with inquiring minds

Bretts wrote:In your PM you state that these guys air layer well all year as long as they are growing well. Yet they can't be removed too close to winter.

Gday Brettles!

That sort of what I said... From memory, my exact words were:

Anytime seems to be OK, but you'll get faster results when the tree is growing strongly. Also, when removing the layer, bear in mind what season it is: I would avoid removing a layer after early Autumn, as the layer may not have time to set roots before Winter sets in.

I'll be keen to see what your results are: I have little experience with any Eucs other than River Reds. I have had success (finally) with one Angophora floribunda, and the layer I tried on my E. sideroxylon has failed (the tree above the layer site has died).

Let us know how you go!

Thanks.

Fly.

Gday folks!

Going back to the original tree in this thread: the 'donor' or 'parent' tree was getting to the point where I could not put off a repot any longer. As usual, it was becoming difficult to get the soil to stay damp for any period of time, and the leaves would wilt at the drop of a hat. So, in order to repot I needed to remove the layer whether it had taken or not...
Not surprisingly, it appeared that the layering medium had dried out once again, and the tree had bridged the wound. (It has been a difficult summer for my trees, as paid work and household projects have had me flat out. )
Some may have read the Koreshoffs' suggestion that Euc lignotubers may be stripped of any roots/branches and planted with good success rates. In this case, I am hoping that the massive swelling I've created will act as a lignotuber, and that with plenty of water and a freely-draining soil mix I might end up with a living tree. If not, I haven't really lost anything but a bit of time.
Updates as they come to hand.

Thanks.

Fly.

Interesting Fly. I look forward to seeing if you have managed to create a lignotuber (or just a large scar). If you have I figure that means you caused some root development (proteoid roots) that regressed but the potential for root growth remains. I'm not a plant biologist but I guess that would mean you have promoted growth of undifferentiated cells (or de-differentiated). I can't recall if you use rooting hormone.
Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Fly.... Great result and great tutorial

Air-Layering is on the " i want to do more " list.
but with threads like this it makes you want to attempt more trees... thanx mate

Great stuff indeed. Have you thought about adding a physical border to stop bridging? Or is it bridging to keep itself alive?
Sorry, pardon my ignorance.... If we were to physically stop it bridging, say with a metal wall that ran around the bottom cut, what would that achieve, anything?

The use of tile spacers is amazing, you are extremley creative!



Your giving me the layering bug again... I just hate/love the waiting.

pasquale wrote:Interesting Fly. I look forward to seeing if you have managed to create a lignotuber (or just a large scar). If you have I figure that means you caused some root development (proteoid roots) that regressed but the potential for root growth remains. I'm not a plant biologist but I guess that would mean you have promoted growth of undifferentiated cells (or de-differentiated). I can't recall if you use rooting hormone.

Gday Pasquale!

I'm pretty positive that I have managed to create something more than scar tissue: when you look back through older photos of the layering process, you will find definite evidence of the beginnings of roots. Unfortunately, due to my lack of proper care, these have dried out and receded.



I did not use root hormone on this tree, and I don't know if it would be of much use, as the River Reds seem (generally) very willing to root by themselves.

Dom124 wrote:Air-Layering is on the " i want to do more " list.
but with threads like this it makes you want to attempt more trees... thanx mate

Gday Dom!

Properly executed (unlike this example), air-layering is a great way of obtaining large and/or established material very cheaply. Let us know how you go!

Creeping Dragon wrote:Have you thought about adding a physical border to stop bridging? Or is it bridging to keep itself alive?
Sorry, pardon my ignorance.... If we were to physically stop it bridging, say with a metal wall that ran around the bottom cut, what would that achieve, anything?

Gday CD!

As I understand it, the 'bridging' is the tree's way of attempting to heal itself in order to save the portion above the layer site. Assuming that the layer throws sufficient roots early enough, these roots will begin to support upper growth almost independently of the base. In such cases it is my observation (assumption?) that when a layer roots well (thus taking some of the strain off the lower trunk), the tree is already well on the way to becoming 2 trees, and as such the layer site is not treated by the tree as a wound, and bridging is minimized.

In regards to your 'physical border': it might be of some use, but on a tree which puts on girth quickly (such as a young River Red) I would be concerned that the tree could become strangulated as its diameter exceeds that of the solid barrier, thus stopping the upward flow of nutrients/water to the layer site. I have read about the 'tourniquet' method of layering which involves tightly wrapping a wire about the trunk and twisting the ends until the wire bites into the bark. The theory here is that the tree will grow into the wire, and gradually the saw flow to the roots will be stopped at the wire, causing roots to shoot. It sounds kinda like what you are suggesting, but one major difference is that the cambium layer is protected by the thickness of the bark, and should not be strangled as the trunk expands.

In short, I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't bother. In future, I'll be using the same method with the exception that I will try to ensure better conditions for the layer to take (IE: I'll make sure to water properly ).

Thanks all!

Fly.

good morning mr fly

the way i see it with a physical border is that because the tree has beeen ring barked the supply and flow of nutrients to the upper section of the tree have already been interrupted and would not cause an issue, the physical barrier also wouldnt cause an issue to thickening of the trunk as the live layers of the tree have been removed there fore that section of the trunk that has been ring barked which has the physical barier would therefore not thicken.

i think a wire would not be sufficient for this though as the way the scar tissue bridges and heals i would say would grwo straight ove the wire without even having an issue.

bit technical but i hope you all understand


jamie

If Jamie is correct about it not growing, then you could pop rivet a sheet of aluminium in a cone shape. If it does indeed swell, then perhaps a cone with a adjustable clamp to loosen as the tree expands.

On this topic, why do we include the bottom cut edge, in the soil medium? Does this not incourage it to bridge? What would happen if say you shifted your pot up above the bottom lip, so it is exposed and visible. Could we not then keep an eye on it and cut it back if it trys to bridge? I am imagining we need to cover it too for some reason...

i think including the cut edge is just the way it happens as doing it this way allows for more root growth space. i would think that being sphagnum moss the main medium used for layers aswell it has some what of an anti bacterial effect keeping nasties out.

i think the idea of blocking the bottom section of would have a good effect in the stopping of new growth bridging the gap though


jamie

I believe it is important to have both cut edges covered as there should still be some exchange of nutrients between the roots and the top of the layer, these would travel through the soil/moss around the wound. If you did not cover the bottom edge of the cut you might as well sever it completely and give it its own pot.

Regards Gerard

thats a good point gerard. the mysteries of bonsai techniques. i can see what your saying there but surely the transport of nutrients from the bottom of the layer to the top is minute. but the if that was the case why do we botther with layers if basically we were just doing one big cutting?

jamie