AusBonsai

What you say about the potting depth seems a good point Shibui. You can notice how much an aerial root will affect the taper flow in a base. I have removed several aerial roots on young material even when it a pot between repotting because you could see it was producing to much flow to that area. Within a short growth period you can see the definate improvement.
Craig's advice recently encouraged me to plant deeper than I usually do and I do see the smart thinking of that advice as well. The basics I reckon is that if the root is deep enough it can have many side shoots so just like a branch that has all it wants it grows much quicker.

As most things like this I think it is variable with the material you are working with.

I planted out a couple of tridents on their second round of root work and this time I had to remove some high roots. Planting too deep after this would encourage this area to reshoot. So maybe I should not have gone too deep with these ones at least.

Although I recently shifted an older hawthorn that has a surprisingly great mature spread from little work. It was reduced hard with no top growth removed and I think planting it deep was advantageous because there is no fear of roots developing above the mature but largely reduced root base.
So many ways
No photo's yet I have at least one picture of a Trident I planted out the other day. Will post soon.

shibui wrote:Scott, normally the entire trunk below the part in question would add the same amount of diameter so a 3cm chopped trunk allowed to grow a 3cm new leader should probably result in a 6cm trunk below the new leader. Problem is that thickening does not always happen evenly around or up and down a trunk - eg trunks thicken more on inside of curves so bends actually 'straighten' as trunks thicken; area where new leader joins old trunk will thicken quicker than leader above so more natural taper results (fortunately )
Also if you have achieved a really good lateral root system the trunk base will thicken more than the trunk above it thus giving better nebari/ tachiagari than a tree with strong vertical roots. Trees with vertical roots generally result in 'telephone pole' trunks with little taper. As Craig said earlier, time spent establishing a lateral rootsystem will usually pay dividends in the end.

Exactly the confirmation I was after! Champion Shibui!

This came out of the ground last year and after drastic root work it was in a pot last year. Looks like decent growth considering it was one of the many tridents hammerd with fungus last season.
You can see some roots above the nebari where removed. Planting this deep will definatly not discourage them returning.
It is in decent shape to go in the ground for a couple of years. If it goes well i would cut the trunk back harder in Autumn but let grow free until then.

I have for lack of time planted out crap in the field for a year or two with very minor root work. If nothing else it saves you space on the bench and makes the stock bigger. The roots and trunk will always come into shape with work in the future. Just depends on how big a tree you want. Thats how this crap with a bright future came about.
thats if the fungus leaves it alone this year

Shibui is correct in saying the trees will send out roots from the trunk when buried deep, I guess the difference between us if that I dig my trees every year so for me its really a non issue, but I can imagine if you left these roots over a number of years they would cause reverse taper problems.
Shibui also talked about the curves thickening out which is the reason I put curves in my seedlings which look to be extreme at the time, they really do look absurd when first done but once the tree has thickened the curves will soften and look more natural.
Craig

Brett, that tiny little branch on the left of your tree the lowest one. Thats the branch I would consider to be critical. You should try to grow it really strongly and it will cause the base of the tree to flare out. In the initial stages of developing a trunk you should get those sac. branches as low as possible.
Craig

I have tended to leave a tree growing undisturbed (roots) for more than one year. As others have suggested to me I have noticed it is after this that they really get going. Like I siad both ways have merit I think it comes down to the variable material and the growing habits of each person. There is always another way.
My plan with this material would be to cut down lower than the branch you mention Craig but not until after this growing season at least. I consider that I maybe should not have chopped the top back at all at the moment as all I have done is reduce the food factory to get the tree going this year in the ground? Then after chopping back I would as you say use sacrifice branches to swell the trunk with taper. Edit:
Any chance of some pictures of stock going into the ground Craig so we can see how you go about it.

I agree with craig on that one brett, you will really want to push that sacrifice hard as where you have cut back for a new leader there is reverse taper and that will take some time to grow out, i would try and get the whole tree to shoot and get a good couple of sac. branches under that to push that reverse taper out.

edit- after seeing your planned cut line that will be fine as the reverse taper is above that

Ok Brett thats a good plan, cutting really low is good, the trouble most people have is not cutting low enough, I am glad to see you don't have that difficulty.
I live in a bit of a special climate here and I suspect thats why I can get away with root pruning every year, by january the trees that have been root pruned will be romping away. Will endeavor to get some pics when and if the rain stops It has been pretty solid now for 3 days.
Craig

Heres some of my trees in the growing on beds affectionately known as the torture chamber
These trees have been dug up and pruned top and bottom in the last week.
Craig

There surely is some nice bases there. Thanks Craig. How many years have they had in the ground so far?
As many people learning from this will be putting trees in the ground for the first time, I was hoping you might be able to scratch up a picture of a tree going into the ground for the first time.

some have been 5 years and other less. I am not planting out any new stock this year as the beds are full.
Craig

Very timely thread and wealth of information.

Since finding AusBonsai the enthusiasm and wealth of ideas and information have been contagious and have encouraged me take my trees more seriously. Plants that have languished in pots for years with little or no progress are being reassessed, and many are likely to get moved into the growing bed soon. Some plants are quite frankly embarrassing! A spell in the growing bed can only improve this stock and some of the “sad ‘n sorrys” from sale tables might even show promise. I can’t wait to see how they change; ah, well, I’ll just have to be patient, after all many have been in limbo for ages and things are moving now.

I’ve read what has been said about roots and wondered if you place anything (tiles, rocks, plastic, etc) beneath the plant to prevent the plant from putting out vertical roots?

Hi Jan
The best thing about field growing is you have to wait the shortest time for the most change. Two years will fly by and then it is like opening Christmas presents in Spring It's the same principle as developing in a pot really just alot quicker.
I think putting a tile under the tree is never going to be a negative in development but It is not always necessary.
Some times the effort to put a tile under the tree and even tie it to the tree can help alot in base development.

Jan, Most of the seedlings I start are threaded through a hole drilled in a 75 mm diam piece of aluminium sheetmetal about 4mm thick (from old roadsigns). The deep roots below the plate keep the tree alive but as it thickens and fills the hole the bark is constricted forcing new roots to grow from above the plate. The new roots are forced to grow horizontal over the metal plate until they get to the edge. Plant the tree so the metal plate is just under the soil but deep enough so the new roots that grow won't dry out before they get past the plate. This gives a great start to horizontal root base and really causes the base of the tree to thicken. Eventually the bit through the hole in the plate dies off. I'm finding that this method does not always produce a full 360 radial rootsystem. If one or 2 roots reach the edge first they take off at the expense of other roots and can give a one sided nebari. More trials needed.
Other growers I know plant the tree on top of a piece of hard plastic or tile to stop roots growing down.
I find that after the vertical roots have been pruned hard a couple of times and the lateral roots encouraged there is little problem and few deep roots grow from then on.
Note that these comments are based on my experiences in the soils and climate in this area and relate mostly to trident maples. Some species eg chinese quince have very strong vertical roots.

Incidentally, I think lateral roots need to be pruned hard early to promote root ramification just like branches. Most roots shoot from the cut end, not so much back along the root so a tree with an unbranched root that is planted into the ground will just end up as a thicker, unbranched root.

Bretts is right about it being like opening presents. You can never tell what its going to look like.

shibui
Matt the maple king. I never know how to spell his last name. Stated that he found the use of ordinary washers the best as the roots got to the edge quicker so there was less chance of one or two roots becoming dominant
One thing Pup taught me about this was that if the material is worth the time a layer will give at least as good results in a quicker time.
Too easy to just drop a washer over multiple material through.
So many different ways to have fun