AusBonsai

that would definitely get the plants going that's for sure!!!!

maybe it is because the mix is so well draining the bulk of the fert goes through the mix and out, perhaps this is where a dry concentrated fert is best needed, just spit balling.

my question is, how much zeolite do people use in their mixes, nutrient binding and CEC seems to be a big issue, just wondering how much we need to use (percentage wise) for best results.

I usually fertilise at 1.5x the recommended dose. My trees are healthy and happy

Very interesting. Thank you.

Walter Pall wrote:Mojo,

I never said that water is water whatever. I said 'if your dog or cat drinks it, if you drink it or use it for cooking it is OK for trees'. So did you drink your water? Chlorinated water is poisinous for trees. W'e rarely have it in my part of the world though.

greetings
WP
http://walter-pall.de

Hi Walter,
My apologies, it seems I misunderstood your point slightly, serves me right for watching videos at 3am , thanks for clarifiying. I was not aware that your water is non-chlorinated, is that the case for the whole of Europe or just your local area? A major part of my motivation for moving to the mountains was to escape Melbourne's water restrictions, In 2006 there was only 330mm of rainfall for the year, my first year in the mountains at 500m altitude just 60km away was 1050mm, this year to date we are approaching 1500mm, which is an abundance in Australian conditions, we are very fortunate.

Cheers,
Mojo

Bretts wrote:How many people have actually fertilised all their trees at 3-4 times the suggested dose as Walter recommends with a modern mix. That would be 120-160ml of Nitrosol to a 9 litre watering can

Hi Brett, that makes the Nitrosol look pretty expensive then, and makes a 50 litre drum of Charlie Carp look a lot less like overkill .

Cheers,
Mojo

Mojo,

here we have much more water than we need. In the south of Germany and in Austria to my knowledge one can always drink tap water without any problem. Quite often tap water has the quality of bottled mineral water. Anyway, here as a rule you can and should always water with tap water. In some southern parts of Europe that is a bit different. These are the folks who have invented to sell water in bottles which is done widely here too in the meanwhile but is abolutely not necessary. In some parts of Italy and Spain it may be a problem to water with tap water because if chlorine. But as I said, it is very easy to know: if you don't drink tap water in a certain area then chances are you should not use it for watering plants either.

I have to agree Mojo. I use water from my dam and it is full of nutrients. Also the water from my tanks is alive. It was interesting that a fellow local described the water in my dam as" Live Water" as compared to Melbournes water which he called dead water. I also use purlite and 3mm scoria in my soil and find that with an aggressive feeding regime it works very well. As stated though, the pruning regime steps up 10 fold. and i cannot keep up. The consequence of that is, that for the most part, my trees look very unruly but very healthy. I have been told many times that i feed my trees to much but have also stopped listening. I think the days of underfeeding to keep the tree from growing is long gone. When i was in Japan the trees were covered with fertilizer. I keep my wisteria covered with fertilizer the whole growing season only occasionally scraping off the top layer.

Gareth wrote: my question is, how much zeolite do people use in their mixes, nutrient binding and CEC seems to be a big issue, just wondering how much we need to use (percentage wise) for best results.

Hi Gareth
I use a 2/3 Diatomite, 1/3 Zeolite mix for all my trees

Joel thanks for the info about peat.

I have no worries with my mix about holding water so will not worry about any organics in it.

Ken

Hi everyone,

As you know i am doing some experiments with potting media and will let you know some of the growing experiment results so far next week.

Re Walters ideas on potting media.
If you use osmocote or similar in your potting media and fertilise as per normal with liquid as well; then for at least the first season you are already using 2.5 or 3 times the standard fertilizing regime. I have been doing this for 20 years plus with good results. (10 to 14% nitrogen in the liquid and 16 or 18% nitrogen in the Osmocote equals about 30% nitrogen in the fertilizer). Reiner Goebbels from Canada uses 30N 10P 10K during his growing season. I think Pup uses very high N on everything.
So I think what Walter is saying re fertlising is good practice; the main difference is that it is all liquid and no Osmocote or chemical fertiliser. You can achieve similar results if you use Osmocote and liquid ferts as long as you renew the Osmocote each year with a top dress of Osmocote.

However I will explore the use of triple dose liquid ferts in combination with higher rates of Diatomite and let you know how it goes.

Re 100% Diatomite; my inclination is that 100% Diatomite in Canberra(and Melbourne and Hay) is not a good idea but I have no scientific evidence to back it up. We experience temps from say -8c to plus 40c and if 100% Diatomite is a dry mix then some plants may not survive multiple days of plus 40 degrees High temps and Low humidity without constant watering. Melbourne last year had 48c which was fairly diabolical. QV uses a mix of 50% Diatomite 2-7mm unsieved or graded/25% pine bark mini nuggets 5-8mm/ and CocoPeat which is minute or-1mm. All his trees survived and thrived all year round in his mix. This mix has many different size particles in it and seems to work OK.

However I am doing a growing test of 100% Diatomite and will let you know.

This year I am using 40% Diatomite/20% gravels/20% Pine Bark Mini Nuggets and 20% Coco Peat. Osmocote and Liquid feed. So far so good. I am not noticing outrageously
growing trees compared to normal but I have always used lots of ferts with various old mixes over the years.

So my conclusions: Yes fertilise the heck out of your trees.
Yes use lots of diatomite.
Not sure about 100% Diatomite.

My 10 cents worth anyhow...

Grant

I agree Grant, I am a little doubtful about using 100% diatomite, 50% seems to be a nice ratio that is mainly how I have used it for the last 7 years.

On the dreadful weather/bushfire day last February it was 45 degrees at my place 5% humidity with the wind gusting at 90kmh, I was watering lightly every 90 minutes watching my wilting Tridents and Larches in seed trays and growing in full sun. It was a bit like trying to grow trees next to an open oven.

Cheers,
Mojo

Mojo Moyogi wrote:I agree Grant, I am a little doubtful about using 100% diatomite, 50% seems to be a nice ratio that is mainly how I have used it for the last 7 years.

On the dreadful weather/bushfire day last February it was 45 degrees at my place 5% humidity with the wind gusting at 90kmh, I was watering lightly every 90 minutes watching my wilting Tridents and Larches in seed trays and growing in full sun. It was a bit like trying to grow trees next to an open oven.

Cheers,
Mojo

We were very lucky in Canberra that day as it only got to 40 degrees. I have experienced multiple plus 40 degrees at my previous residence in the Sthn Highlands of NSW and never lost a tree to heat that i know of but as I had a nursery and was at home thos edays it was not a problem..

I wasn't using(but wish I had) been using diatomite then.

Grant

Walter mentions "These organic materials are good for keeping humidity higher in the substrate and for supporting the colonization of beneficial microbial life', as a reason for using long-life organics in a substrate. The relationship between Mycorrhizae and plant roots is still a relative unknown, but the benefits are recognised enough that there are actual Mycorrhizae-based treatments for tending to, or increasing plant health.

So, we can ascertain that life inside your substrate, as opposed to pure hydroponics (anyone practising Hydroponic Bonsai?), is a good thing. Do we know if pouring strong chemical fertilisers onto these fungi and bacteria could negate any benefits in having them in the first place? Like ozzy said, it's basically hydroponics, a substrate being irrigated by the nutrients it needs.

That said, do the people who have been doing this for a while (and in particular the people testing soil mixes), tried the hydroponic method? Using PH-balanced, PPM/EC-monitored, flood-and-drain systems as a 'Control'? Fair enough, use the sunlight as opposed to a MH/HPS light, but the substrate and every facet of the nutrient need is controlled by the grower (down to the details like PPM, parts-per-million if you can get your head around that).

It's funny, that if you want to learn about hydroponics, the best, most peer-reviewed information out there is all in Marijuana forums. This includes nutrient control, how to use PPM testing, H2O2 and aerated nutrient mix, the best substrates etc. which is almost like Bonsai substrate work is trying to achieve. As Walter said "I have adapted modern horticulture to bonsai. Only in the bonsai world does this seem revolutionary.", that hydroponics is clearly the next step, or at least a fusion of the three.

And here I am. I must admit, I'm not here for the art of Bonsai, I came here to trawl your forums for all the information related to tree longevity, soil, fertilising and good posts such as these, and many others contained here. And, I've trawled Marijuana forums for ideas of the same. Though, I stayed in the hydroponics side, there is a lot of information regarding organic/inorganic container growing that I didn't delve into due to the taboo of reading about illegal activities.

And people publishing ideas that constantly push the understood boundaries is always a good thing. One question though, how many of you even considered my post about Bio Char? Is Bio Char going to be included in any substrate testing? I'm not flogging a product, it's something outside the box that was never mentioned on these forums before (remembering Charcoal is NOT Bio Char).

Oh, and let's not forget permaculture as the fourth method to include.

And people publishing ideas that constantly push the understood boundaries is always a good thing. One question though, how many of you even considered my post about Bio Char? Is Bio Char going to be included in any substrate testing? I'm not flogging a product, it's something outside the box that was never mentioned on these forums before (remembering Charcoal is NOT Bio Char).

Was Bio Char known to me when setting up growing and component tests for bonsai? No
Was Bio Char requested by any one when I asked for particular components to be tested? No
Do I discount using Bio Char as a component? No
Will I be including Bio Char in my testing? Not in the near term
Will I be setting up or testing Hydroponic set ups for growing bonsai? No
Do I consider Bonsai a bit like growing Hydroponics? Yes. The medium holds the plants upright and you add water and nutrients.

I think that about covers that.

Cheers,

grant

Yes, that just about covers that. Thank you for your wonderfully verbose answers I do detect some defensiveness though, I was not having a go at you personally so please don't take it that way.

Will I be setting up or testing Hydroponic set ups for growing bonsai? No

What about using hydroponic-based nutrients, as opposed to general fertilisers for testing when using mainly inorganic, nutrient-deficient mediums?

Do I consider Bonsai a bit like growing Hydroponics? Yes. The medium holds the plants upright and you add water and nutrients.

Refer to question above. Your personal mix looks to me like a good balance, which holds or creates its own nutrients, but for others that trying more extremes, it seems unusual not to be using, or trying hydroponic mixes, at varying PPMs, since the medium isn't really helping the plants along (naturally). For example, no one grows hydroponics by pouring general fertiliser on them.

Do you know of anyone using hydroponic nutrients in the past?

S.O.P wrote:Yes, that just about covers that. Thank you for your wonderfully verbose answers I do detect some defensiveness though, I was not having a go at you personally so please don't take it that way.

Will I be setting up or testing Hydroponic set ups for growing bonsai? No

What about using hydroponic-based nutrients, as opposed to general fertilisers for testing when using mainly inorganic, nutrient-deficient mediums?

Do I consider Bonsai a bit like growing Hydroponics? Yes. The medium holds the plants upright and you add water and nutrients.

Refer to question above. Your personal mix looks to me like a good balance, which holds or creates its own nutrients, but for others that trying more extremes, it seems unusual not to be using, or trying hydroponic mixes, at varying PPMs, since the medium isn't really helping the plants along (naturally). For example, no one grows hydroponics by pouring general fertiliser on them.

Do you know of anyone using hydroponic nutrients in the past?

Firstly, not defensive but clarifying my position.

I am testing materials and mixes that will be easilly repeatable by me and others for use in their own micro climates and easilly and cheaply obtained; therefore I am probably bypassing the more extreme range of materials(I am funding the tests myself). Please feel free to pursue, test and report on any or all materials as they become available.

Do I know of someone who has used Hydroponic nutrients and growing methods in the past? Yes! There was a wonderful man by the name of Max Candy who was amazingly inquizative, eccentric, cashed up, non sleeping and lived on his own. He turned a spare bedroon into a hot house and grew Japanese Black Pines under lights.

Grant