AusBonsai

leamos wrote:So your saying i'm right to chop the trunk now? everything i have read on the subject says late spring to mid summer for trunk chops

Ahh Sorry, I meant wire it up now, but chop it later

Ken

ok no worries, I'll wire the new leader this arvo, thinking i might layer the top and get another tree out of it over spring.
Thanks for everyone's help

leamos wrote:So your saying i'm right to chop the trunk now? everything i have read on the subject says late spring to mid summer for trunk chops

Hi Leamos,

You canchop the trunk now but what you have to do is seal the wound. As the tree is dormant it wouldn't heal the wound and that could cause all sorts of problems this time of the year when it's wet and cold. When you do it in late Spring - mid Summer the tree will start healing straight away.
What ever you decide to do I would also cut it back to one of the lower branches depending on the roots.

Cheers and have fun,

Chris Sirre

Chris Sirre wrote:
What ever you decide to do I would also cut it back to one of the lower branches depending on the roots

I am planning on chopping above the bottom branch on the left in the first pic i posted, as Ken suggested. Can you explain what you meant here regarding the roots,

Cutting back to a lower branch could give a really great bend to the future trunk. Which one you cut to depends on where the roots are around the base as the trunk should be tilted to take advantage of the new trunk bend created by pruning to the branch. Best root arrangement should also be at the front of the tree and the trunk looks best leaning slightly back and to either left or right, definitely not forward so that might help select which branch to cut to. You might also consider the ultimate sze of the tree. Looks good if the first bend is 1/4 to 1/3 of final height.
Personally I think this specimen has the makings of a good small tree and I would NOT use a grow box or ground for this one.This trident of mine was developed slowly in pots up to 20 cm to give a delicate small tree with few scars. note the trunk starts with a slight lean rather than vertical as outlined above. I would also be happy to do major pruning (for your tree its really only small cuts anyway and will heal quickly as it grows as the tree is young and vigorous, even without sealing) any time of year except just after buds opening.
Much bonsai advice is written by enthusiastic amateurs or journalists with little practical knowledge who just want to get published and can't wait to gain the necessary experince.

The reason we root prune and repot when the buds burst in spring is because the tree is waking up from dormancy and stores it's Energy in it's roots during winter. come spring all that energy shifts up into the branches and leaves .so heavy pruning is done in winter or even better late winter. all these things are timed not remove the trees energy. I think this is a very usefull thing to understand when creating bonsai.

We remove needles from pines in autumn to reduce the trees energy. we defoliate deciduous trees in summer to reduce the trees energy. we trim often during the growing season which reduces the trees energy. If the energy is stored in the roots while dormant then rootpruning at any time before the leaves are out would remove a lot of energy . reducing energy by pruning could be a useful strategy if you really understand.
IMHO pruning just before growth starts is more about the tree being able to seal the cut area and protect itself from infection. We can counter that by sealing cuts as Chris suggested or by normal aftercare and hygiene. With a tree as tough as a trident pruning at any time should not cause any problems.
Has anyone considered other commercial rootpruning times? Fruit trees and roses are bare rooted as soon as the leaves have fallen, sometimes even earlier so they can be in the nurseries as early as possible. More than 99% will survive despite being pulled out of the ground and transported several times during winter.
Many years ago i thought if fruit trees and roses can survive early root pruning with so little aftercare so can many trees we grow as bonsai, especially as we give much better aftercare. After trying it out many times I know it is ok Commercial bonsai growers and people with large collections could not keep up if they had to do all pruning and repotting in a short window 'just before buds shoot'. I usually start digging and pruning my ground grown trees in June with no ill effects.

I totally agree with shibui, ill start lifting my decidious trees from my grow beds in june or whenever total left drop had occured. i have been to his place and seen how HARD he cuts back his maples , especially tridents sometimes to the base with no ill effects. as long as leaf fall has occured you should be fine. Like he said its a young tree so any scars would only be temp. shibui nice little trident you have there too

Just in relation to the potting window, most my large lots of repots get done (species dependant) from 9pm till 2am in the late winter for deciduous and early spring for evergreen. Moonlighting

I would have no hesitation to trim , chop and root prune after leaf drop . I have Tridents , Japanese Maples , Crab apples , American Hornbeams , Chinese elms and Dogwoods in the ground . I also dig ,bare root , root prune and re-pot most pines and junipers in early winter every year, usually before i work on my deciduous . I have actually started now . I believe in most cases 50% of written material is incorrect and 50% of that is not tested or tried by the authors .There are plenty of copy cat books on bonsai .Spend an Hour with someone like Shibui in your area and you will learn more than any book will detail in pics and words .Thats why i try and test all things relating to growing good healthy tree's . Keep us posted .Cheers Alpineart

Al, it is refreshing to hear from actual experience vs regurgitation
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

Thank you everyone particularly you shibui, that trident is fantastic inspiration , hope u don't mind me asking but how many years have gone into it, if my tree finishes up even half that nice i will be stoked, looks like I have some work to do in the mean time hahaha, once again thanks for everyones thoughts and advice

Sorry Leamos can't give you a definite age for that tree. I have/ have had too many to keep track of that accurately. My best guess is somewhere about 10 years from seed. As stated it has been grown slowly in a pot all its life.

Just out of interest I am planning July 16 as this year's open day if anyone is interested and available. Plenty of practical experience and information in exchange for your energy helping to lift and prune this year's trees. Theres about 150 to dig - mosty tridents, some Japanese maples, chinese quince, olives, chinese elms and a couple of conifers. PM shibui for details or to register interest as we can only cope with 5 or 6 helpers.

The deed has been done, and it was a all going so well until SNAP, the new leader cracked! was doing it so gently too, really dissapointed with myself, oh well such is life, so fingers crossed the branch stays alive and heals up any first aid tips would be aappreciated

you can glue it back together with superglue if you need, but you must aviod getting on the cambium.
I just wrap with grafting tape then put wire on to support if you need

Nice chop

Ken