AusBonsai

And another good one. Slightly different approach. I'm just a beginner with pines, but have some that I need to info for.

http://bonsaikc.com/advanced-techniques/needle-therapy/

Do you want it thicker?

Hi Scott,

Yeah pretty keen to get it thicker. I have wired the branches down in order to give it more light and allow it to push the current buds into more open space. Am i thinking right? I am not cutting anything at this stage just making more room for growth which I hope means more thickness.

Squizz

squizzy wrote:...I am not cutting anything at this stage just making more room for growth which I hope means more thickness.

Bingo, good work.

Get the fert on and keep it up.

Keep posting pics too, definitely a mid spring one.

Here is your mid spring update on this tree. Candles are pushing on this tree much earlier than my others I have no explaination.

Think I might take the tops off the stronger ones soon followed by the weaker ones a few weeks later. To give some scale the longest of the candles is probably 150mm or about 7 inches. Cheers

Squizz

Boons DVDs are the bomb! Get one really helped me. He explains by cutting back the spring candles you get rid of the neck where no needles will form. Thus reducing leggy branches and keeping a more compact tree. Plus it encourages back budding. He talks about cutting his candles in June which is December aus. Big trees first then medium trees and then following week shohin as the later you leave to cut you also reduce the time that the tree can produce long needles. He sells them on his website at a reasonable price! Any way I hope this helps and I hope I regurgitated most of what I have learnt from the DVDs for you. Cam

squizzy wrote:...Candles are pushing on this tree much earlier than my others I have no explaination.

Think I might take the tops off the stronger ones soon followed by the weaker ones a few weeks later. To give some scale the longest of the candles is probably 150mm or about 7 inches.

mid spring, my pines are starting to candle, maybe 1-2 cm out! massive difference in temps!

Has this tree had more fert than the others? or maybe more attention? have the others been wired harder, repotted?

Why are you going to take the tops off the candles? if you are looking for thickness, let it grow.

If you are looking to refine it, personally I'd wait much later when the new needles have fully come out (will make the tree much healthier but probably won't fatten the trunk). The tree will also use a lot of its energy on these needles, then cut them off and you'll get much shorter needles from the weaker summer growth.

But i'd be interested in hearing your thoughts (along with others).

Thanks Scott. The tree had pushed these candles and u have no intention of keeping them for the future look of the tree so my only reason for cutting them is to avoid the needles and growth moving further away from the start of the candles growing point. Are you saying I should leave them to form tall tails full of growth and cut them off next year (timing) and repeat the process next spring. Like I have said before I only cut these new candles to avoid the growth getting further away from the trunk given how hard it is to get black pines to back bud. Am I being to cautious.

Squizz

When we decandle (around Dec this year, depending on local climate), this growth will be removed anyway so there is no issue of the growth getting too far away from the trunk. At the base of the current candle new buds will emerge and grow new shorter branches with no/smaller neck as Cam said. The benefit of leaving this growth until summer is that the tree gets to be a tree and grow and gain strength.

The technique of snapping candles is generally used for much more refined trees to decrease the differential between the weak and strong areas. Decandling will do enough for this tree at the stage it is at.

cheers Scott.

So I will get the full benifit of trunk thickening by december and then cut back right to the point of origin of these candles. Is that right? is there any benifit in leaving the candles until next autumn?

Squizz

If you leave the candles until next Autumn (March-ish) you will get extra thickening in the tree, it just depends on what you are wanting from the tree.

Decandling is a technique used for refinement of what is existing, that is, what the tree already has.

Letting the tree grow all season is a technique used for thickening the tree or growing new extensions.

I would really recommend either Boon's JBP DVDs or Leong from Bonsai South's book, or both. They both explain quite clearly what you need to know to start with, just depends how you learn, reading or watching?

Then use that knowledge to observe your trees and teach yourself.

Thanks Scott.

Squizz

Interesting discussion.

I personally tried shortening the candles at the top of the tree and leave the lower limbs candles untouched until the Autumn.
My logic was that this continues growth low in the tree, balances the energy into the area where the trunk needs thickening most.
Didnt really work.

The best approach for thickening the trunk is to put it in the back, throw lots of fertilizer in the geneneral direction and forget about it.

So the decision to be made first is what are you wanting of this tree. If you want to style it then watch Boon. If you want to thicken it forget about it.
or better yet, play with this one and go buy another one and thicken it!

Hi Squizzy,

I havent read your thread in its entirity but......

if you want to thicken the trunk AND keep growth in close i would be letting one candle in the upper section of the tree grow out for a couple of seasons while de-candling the rest of the tree as i assume has been described above.

Make sure that you only let one strong candle remain on the sacrifice branch or else it will sap to much energy from the rest of the tree.

Chris H wrote:Interesting discussion.

I personally tried shortening the candles at the top of the tree and leave the lower limbs candles untouched until the Autumn.
My logic was that this continues growth low in the tree, balances the energy into the area where the trunk needs thickening most.
Didnt really work.

The best approach for thickening the trunk is to put it in the back, throw lots of fertilizer in the geneneral direction and forget about it.

So the decision to be made first is what are you wanting of this tree. If you want to style it then watch Boon. If you want to thicken it forget about it.
or better yet, play with this one and go buy another one and thicken it!

Hi ChrisH,

Thanks for the comments.

The only flaw I can see with the theory of throwing it in the back corner and forgeting about it is that it will put on extrended lengths of growth and I will loose what ramification I already have plus the foiliage my shed too far from the trunk for me to cut back hard. How have you found this scenario when you have used this technique?

Squizz

Jow wrote:Hi Squizzy,

I havent read your thread in its entirity but......

if you want to thicken the trunk AND keep growth in close i would be letting one candle in the upper section of the tree grow out for a couple of seasons while de-candling the rest of the tree as i assume has been described above.

Make sure that you only let one strong candle remain on the sacrifice branch or else it will sap to much energy from the rest of the tree.

Jow. This theory I like. The sacrifice branch makes perfect sense. I gues I just have to choos which one.

I think my next move deffinatly needs to be a design and a long term plan for this tree. 2 years ago I was trying to work with the branch structure I had and I wasnt as worried about thickness. From what I have learnt on here I have changed my whole approach to trainning trees. I will try and produce a sketch of this tree as the next stage and get it up on this site when I can.

Thanks for the wealth of knowledge everyone has provided.

Cheers

Squizz