Boon`s Soil Mix

[Bretts]

But then again. Walter Pall's conifers look fine too and he re pots his pines as well as deciduous trees very infrequently.
http://walter-pall.de/c01conifers.jpg.dir/index.html

From Walter Pall
Since there is no soil in modern substrates there is very little alive in them. They dry out easily and one must water several times a day when it is hot, especially if you have used pure inorganics. Therefore I add rough peat in addition to the previously mentioned substrates. This is the kind of peat that is harvested in bogs and comes in its natural coarse form. Make certain not to use fine particle peat/sphagnum moss, even if the package says “dust free” as the particles will be too small. If you cannot find the correct type of peat, use small bark bits without dust particles, or cut coconut fibers. These organic components should comprise 15-20 % of the overall volume, a bit less with conifers, olives and such, and a bit more with small trees and azaleas.

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com. ... glish.html

As you know I could not get good quality peat moss so after talking with Walter I used normal spag moss. But now I just use bark bits as Walter suggests and then chopped spag moss on the surface of the soil. I am pretty happy with this now.

[GavinG]

The pumice from Ausperl doesn't seem to me to need sieving. I've been using 80% pumice (2-4mm), and 20% coco peat for my littlies because the diatomite was too coarse for small pots, and they've survived even my treatment. My only problem is the grey-white colour, and the tendency to wash out of the pot very easily. Disaster trees (damn near dead things) or gathered trees have thrived in 100% pumice so long as it was deep. Thanks for putting me onto it Scott. Bigger trees go into diatomite/pumice/coco, zeolite/pumice/coco or even 80%diatomite/20%coco - doesn't seem to make a lot of difference. Pump the fertilizer into them, and if in doubt, water - at least in the warmer months. What's not needed will drain, but there's very little leeway if anything dries. We haven't had anything brutally hot in the last two years, so I don't know how well they'll survive that.

Gavin

[Luke308]

Thanks Brett

All my trees (except a banyan fig from bunnings I was given as a gift) are in nursery pots, orchard pots, foam boxes, or colanders. So I guess I shouldn't worry to much at this stage. Regarding the Lifeforce Stimulate that you provided a link to, have you or anyone you know tried this? How did you come across this product? I have just sent them an email regarding stats and availability, but I think it would be better suited for use with inorganic mediums due to foliar feeding.

One thing I found interesting whilst on their site was a product called "rooterpot" which they claim has revolutionised Air-layering I have also asked for prices and availability on both sizes of these too as they seem like a great idea. Especially since you can apparently check root growth without disturbing the roots, and then cover again easily if needed. I will post a link to it in its own thread as I think this would prove quite popular. Here is the link anyway http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/m ... erpot.html

In regards to zeolite, I can't see how people can sya anything bad about it as it is scientifically proven to store an release nutrients to plants as needed. To me this is great considering when used in an open mix with diatomite which will have most of the fertiliser flow straight through anyway. So If the zeolite can retain the ferts nutrients and release them over the next week between feeds then I think that is great.

The only reason I was using pine bark minis was to have at least something (even only 10% of medium) that can benefit from the seasol and go-go juice that everyone raves about. If I can get away with using the lifeforce stimulate that you mentioned earlier, I will happily go to 100% inorganic mix.

Thanks for your suggestions though, there is still a lot to be experimented with

[Bretts]

All my trees (except a banyan fig from bunnings I was given as a gift) are in nursery pots, orchard pots, foam boxes, or colanders. So I guess I shouldn't worry to much at this stage. Regarding the Lifeforce Stimulate that you provided a link to, have you or anyone you know tried this? How did you come across this product? I have just sent them an email regarding stats and availability, but I think it would be better suited for use with inorganic mediums due to foliar feeding.

I said normal nursery pots. You will notice the better quality ones will actually have an indent in the bottom this little feature does alot to help drainage. It creates a narower taller pot.
I did a quick search and this guy explains it well (pay little attention to any of the other posts they will just confuse you )
http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB2/v ... baa6ebbc57
He also states how he uses this information to adjust his mix to the shape of the pot and the growth he wants from the tree. Smart guy But looks like he needs a little more time to get the practicle application right
Get it right and the tree will grow very fast.
Orchad pots are not as good as a normal nursery pot for drainage (especialy if we add a drainage layer on the bottom) They are better than a standard bonsai pot though. Same goes for foam pots. Colanders can be pretty good but some care must still be taken. Lots of holes does not make lots of drainage.

I came accross that stuff when looking for humic acid. I have tried about half of their Life force range and I like them. Great quality but on the pricey side. I will definitely be getting more of the stimulate. It has every known snake oil all rolled into one. It does not need to be used as a foliar feed but that will give the most instant results. Can't say I have seen results but I would not expect to see quantitative results in my application. At the moment I am happy to trust the science behind it.

One thing I found interesting whilst on their site was a product called "rooterpot" which they claim has revolutionised Air-layering I have also asked for prices and availability on both sizes of these too as they seem like a great idea. Especially since you can apparently check root growth without disturbing the roots, and then cover again easily if needed. I will post a link to it in its own thread as I think this would prove quite popular. Here is the link anyway http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/m ... erpot.html

The rooter pot looks good. I think it was posted up on the site in the past. Nutritech did not invent it but are the East Coast distributer.

In regards to zeolite, I can't see how people can sya anything bad about it as it is scientifically proven to store an release nutrients to plants as needed. To me this is great considering when used in an open mix with diatomite which will have most of the fertiliser flow straight through anyway. So If the zeolite can retain the ferts nutrients and release them over the next week between feeds then I think that is great.

There are a couple of things that could be funny about zeolite. I found it works great at 100% for cuttings But my one go with it at 100% was not great. I didn't seem to have any drainage issue but it was in a nursery pot. It did seem to be lacking in nutrients though. Maybe I just didn't fertilise enough but My thought was a pH issue.
Others have suggested that it may not let the plant have the nutrients and also that an elictrical type charge is holding onto more water. I think these are both feasible but nothing is proven either way. Another look at Grants substrate experiments could shed some more light on this. But at the moment I am happy to keep zeolite as a minor element.
Many people are using with good results but as Ken states 1/3 It could simply be others 1/3 may be different. But to suggest that extra rain fall is the cause makes little sense to me when mediums that hold more water can also get great results in very wet climates.

The only reason I was using pine bark minis was to have at least something (even only 10% of medium) that can benefit from the seasol and go-go juice that everyone raves about. If I can get away with using the lifeforce stimulate that you mentioned earlier, I will happily go to 100% inorganic mix.

Walter uses 15-20% organics in his mix so why should you stop if you think it is working for you. As he states it just makes the mix a little less demanding. I haven't tried the gogo juice (so can't say much) but I know others that say it is great but I thought it was a little expensive. The stimulate is made to be absorbed by the tree quickly so that seems to suite a free draing mix better to me. It also contains more "stuff" I would also keep using seasol a little bit often with organics in ya mix or not.

Experimenting can be good but also just concentrate on fine tuning what you already know.

[Mojo Moyogi]

I have skimmed this thread to date, it may have some interest for me but due to time constraints I havent committed to reading it from the begining to the end.

My question is, I guess, if I do decide to read the rest of the thread, in the opinion of those more up to date with proceedings, am I more likely to discover:

a) well researched and documented findings.
b) a substantiated fact or 2 from an informed author
c) assumptions and selective "truths" based on such assumptions


Just curious,
Mojo

[Bretts]

a) yes
b) yes
and
c) yes

[Gareth]

this is crossing over a lot with grants potting mix results post.

What I am seeing is many different organics, inorganics (for drainage and water holding), inorganics simply for drainage such as granite) CEC medias, trace element medias (mineral rock etc) and ferts that can be used.

Depending on availability most mentioned can be used successfully, yes, some work much better than others, and there are different percentages used, and some components may not be used in certain areas period.

What i think we need, instead of people saying what does and doesn't work them, is a thread that identifies the different components, what they do in a mix, what advantages they may have over components and what the recommended (if any) proportion of them people use.

Then people can make their own decision, or at least have some in depth information about each component in order to be able to better create a mix that suits their needs.

for instance, people say that organics are taboo almost, whereas i am trialing up to 60% organic in my mixes now, (the percentage will depend i think on which size inorganic you use and what type) BUT, organic has many things going for it.

For one, it helps microorganisms to grow more easily, remineralizing nutrients so they are available to the plants. secondly it help hold a little more water. Using a "organic" organic, like worms casting which i am experimenting with currently, may provide a better natural environment for the plant, even if only used at 20%.

This is an example of what i mean, break down the components into their uses and advantages/disadvantages, recommended uses, functions and then some examples of how they react in certain "mainstream or common mixes".

It would create a baseline that i think would be more helpful and benefit everyone a lot more.

[Olivecrazy]

Im the ( if it aint broken don't fix it type ) meaning if you have a good mix that you are using an your trees have good growth i wouldn't change your mix .
Australia has many climates so i think once you have something working well stick with it . I use to use 40% 2-5mm gravel 60% good potting mix for my trees an re-pot every 2nd year it worked well we have hot days in SA so having organic in my mix was a good thing i think. I use to find that after 2yrs the finer sand an particles of the potting mix would wash through to the bottom of the pot so ended up putting a layer of gravel in the bonsai pot first.

[Luke308]

There are a couple of things that could be funny about zeolite. I found it works great at 100% for cuttings But my one go with it at 100% was not great. I didn't seem to have any drainage issue but it was in a nursery pot. It did seem to be lacking in nutrients though. Maybe I just didn't fertilise enough but My thought was a pH issue.
Others have suggested that it may not let the plant have the nutrients and also that an elictrical type charge is holding onto more water. I think these are both feasible but nothing is proven either way. Another look at Grants substrate experiments could shed some more light on this. But at the moment I am happy to keep zeolite as a minor element.
Many people are using with good results but as Ken states 1/3 It could simply be others 1/3 may be different. But to suggest that extra rain fall is the cause makes little sense to me when mediums that hold more water can also get great results in very wet climates.

I wouldn't use zeolite at 100% as according to Grants soil test, it does not retain/absorb enough water for my liking. For cuttings I have been told to use 100% diatomite fines, eg the stuff we sieve out of the bag and most people throw away and this is quite resourceful also. I haven't tried this as I have other ideas for my fines. I have just repotted my JBP seedlings into 6cm pots with diatomite fines, zeolite and pine bark minis. I thought being such a small pot they would be better off with the smaller diameter daitomite. (I have no science to back that up, but you got me thinking about particle size in relation to pot size).

I like Gareth's suggestion of having a post (or stickie) of each possible medium component and its advantages, what they do, and what recommended mix for what types of trees etc. What do others think?

And Olivecrazy, I agree if it ain't broke dont fix it, but what if you experiment and find something that allows more root growth, therefore more top growth which would potentially save years off of your development time? would you then switch? I started out using coir peat/zeolite/ and spongelite, but the coir was too water retentive. Being a newbie, I wanted something I could water and fertilise till the cows come home without having to worry about root rot or burning roots due to over fertilisation. So in a nutshell, I think modern substrates are a must for newbies, and pre-bonsai trainers.

[Olivecrazy]

So true about trying new things luke 308 saving yrs of training time is a big thing especially for people that are new to bonsai when you see your trees getting better its a good incentive to collect more .
When i start getting some back into bonsai pots ill do some an ask around to see what people are using having faster growing trees is all ways a good thing .

[Bretts]

When I first started Bonsai about 7 years ago I was hearing a lot about advantages of inorganic mixes from the international forums and websites. I also heard alot from Australians that those only work in a climate that is not as hot as ours. Then when I started using akadama I hear again that this will only work in Japan with their climate. Maybe this has left me a little cynical of people crying chicken little that the sky is falling. Because after 7 years I have seen people I talk with from around the world in all types of climates use all manner of mixes with great results. Just occasionally I hear some one stand up and say Oi that mix won't work in my climate or even that the medium is just plain useless in any climate. I think it would be more correct to say, That mix does not work in my climate with my horticultural techniques.
If you can grasp the concept that a cutting will recover better in a certain type of soil then you must agree that trees stressed to different degrees will recover better in certain types of soil.
If a tree has stronger roots it will grow in a soil that holds alot more water for longer. In fact it will probably thrive in such a soil more than the soil of a cutting because in reality keeping the conditions just right for a tree that has high demands is practically too demanding.
There is some talk of how a tree that is not pushed so hard will actually progress faster as a bonsai than one that is pushed to the limit. A tree pushed to it's limit may take the whole season to fill the pot with roots and then a certain soil may not work for them and stay too wet. There are many techniques that can help a tree extend it's roots quickly after repotting. Just this act alone would be a massive advantage to the performance of the medium.
The question I always ask myself is, if it is working for them then why is it not working for me or the other person. In answering this question climate is often very easy to rule out as I can usually find some one in a very similar climate that is getting results with the same mix.
My closest bonsai mate uses a mix totally opposite to mine and his care is also practically opposite to mine. I get a little freaked out when he gives me a tree as I find the care for his mix very foreign. My mix is much more labour intensive. The theory was that my more labour intensive mix would produce better results. It has taken several years to make a fair comparison and I can say from what I see yes a labour intensive mix can get better results but not always.

[Scott Roxburgh]

A blog post that discusses some of the differences in soil mixes, and their various uses.
http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/201 ... ent-maple/

...I have seen people I talk with from around the world in all types of climates use all manner of mixes with great results. Just occasionally I hear some one stand up and say Oi that mix won't work in my climate or even that the medium is just plain useless in any climate. I think it would be more correct to say, that mix does not work in my climate with my horticultural techniques...My mix is much more labour intensive. The theory was that my more labour intensive mix would produce better results.

Agreed Brett, more air/water/ferts have produced better results for me, but horses for courses!

[Dutchie_Boy]

This has turned into a really good discussion.

What size particles are you using for your growing medium?

Cheers

Mark

[Bretts]

That is a great example how different size mediums should be utilized Scott.

DB I use 2-4mm without a drainage layer for my bonsai pots that will be lacking in room and drainage. In the larger pots I might use a larger mix at the bottom around 7mm then mid size 4-7 in the middle then the 2-4 at the top.
I think the gradual size decrease does not hinder drainage and keeps more water on the surface of the pot as the article Scott linked states and as a bonus doesn't waste all my best soil in the big nursery pots.

[reddoggy]

Hey you guy`s out there,don`t mean to stir this thread up again ,but need to know when you change from an organic mix to one of the mixes mentioned above including Ken`s mix do you completely bare root the trees and put in the new mix or do you leave some of there old stuff there and maybe do it over a few years,any info would be appreciated thanks.