AusBonsai

Thanks gentlemen for the meaty discussion - well worth following.

For my 2c, the head/crown/apex/top bit seems to fall off to the left, and the strong right arm fights a bit with it directionally. Also (and this may just be because I can only see a photo) the head is very twisted, but the arm is straight, and it might not be possible to get them to talk the same visual language. On the other hand, when you grow full foliage masses the problem may become irrelevant - the tree becomes clouds of foliage carefully distributed, like quite a number of the Japanese trees you posted - we can't actually see how the branches and trunks move.

Thanks for posting the exceptional Japanese examples. It seems to me with cascades/semi-cascade/falling over styles that either the arm or the head should be clearly stronger - when they are about even they tend to disagree with one another.

I can't grow pines to save my soul, so I have great respect for anyone working at this advanced level. Won't shut me up but.

Gavin

bodhidharma wrote:

Tony Bebb wrote:Interesting comment Bodhi about seeing it front on. Where do you see the front

Yeah.. phrased it badly Tony ...Sorry. What i meant was, could i see the tree with the cascade branch facing toward us so i could see the movement and spread.

Here is a quick pic from this morning showing the view from tip of cascade branch. You can see the movement that is along the length of the cascade. It is at these elbows that i think i will be able to get a bit of up and down movement by means fo some bending. Thoughts?

GavinG wrote:Thanks gentlemen for the meaty discussion - well worth following.

For my 2c, the head/crown/apex/top bit seems to fall off to the left, and the strong right arm fights a bit with it directionally. Also (and this may just be because I can only see a photo) the head is very twisted, but the arm is straight, and it might not be possible to get them to talk the same visual language. On the other hand, when you grow full foliage masses the problem may become irrelevant - the tree becomes clouds of foliage carefully distributed, like quite a number of the Japanese trees you posted - we can't actually see how the branches and trunks move.

Thanks for posting the exceptional Japanese examples. It seems to me with cascades/semi-cascade/falling over styles that either the arm or the head should be clearly stronger - when they are about even they tend to disagree with one another.

I can't grow pines to save my soul, so I have great respect for anyone working at this advanced level. Won't shut me up but.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

Thanks for the comments. I think in regard to the apex and moving too far left that you are correct. At the moment this is the case but this tree has a lot of growing to do which hopefully will correct this. Have a look at the drawing on the previous page. Its roughly what i hope i can achieve in the next few years.

Pines arnt really all that hard to grow well, you just have to have a strong understanding of energy ballancing and use a couple of techniques at certain times of the year you should have no problems. Have a go!

I personally think you will be able to achieve some movement, anything is possible with patience and correct application The refinement of the needles will go a long way in enhancing the look of it. Ramification has a way of doing that. Nice project, Will you go for guy wiring or use large benders

I nearly always use bending jacks. I tend to use guy wires for seccuring the bend once it has been made rather than using them to do the bend itself. I have a couple of sizes of bending jacks which make doing things like this particularily when alone a piece of cake.

Oh and the needles will come down in time. Last year it wasnt candle pruned so it would build up strength. I might leave it again this year, but that all depends on how well it grows out this spring.

Joe.

Here's an interesting one.....

Hi Jow, I like your tree,just a couple of thoughts if you like, the straight part cascading does distract my eye,but with a heavy foliage pad wired back over this in time or a combination with a heavy upright section of foliage brought down to cover where the cascading section leaves the upright trunk I think would fix this area, something like the images you have shown in the latter part of your post,heavy trees with a little more illusion,anyway nice work mate, something I dare say you have already thought about.
cheers Anthony

Wow what a week. Sorry it took a while, but I didn't forget this post. Was a big week working 3 - 11 6 days with one shift 3pm - 3am, workshops on 2 mornings, visitors over the weekend, getting new posts on the blog after 3 weeks, and writing bits for our newsletter.

You posted some nice photos of some beautiful Bonsai, Joe. Too many to comment individually, but some beautiful cascades, a couple of uprights and a twin trunk. I to love the grey areas of Bonsai.

I certainly believe a cascade may not have a crown Joe. There are times when a tree can not grow upright at all, and this would not have a crown. The reference to a single line or double line cascade comes from my early learning based upon the classical teachings of Yuji Yoshimura. His book Bonsai - Miniature Trees and Landscapes was first printed in english in 1951 and is still available today. I always classed this book as the Bible of Bonsai, and Bonsai - Art, Science, History and Philosophy as the Encyclopedia.

Below is a copy of drawings done by Yuji when he was here in 1984,and shows his thoughts on cascades. And this one is a beautiful drawing of a great cascade without a crown, but the design has an apex And while I would not critique or virt this tree, this photo you put up Joe is a double line cascade, and without the circled area, would be a single line cascade. I look at the Crown to be the upright portion of a Cascade Style, and this also has an apex. With a Cascade without a crown, the tree does not have an apex as such as what was to be the top of the tree is now the tip of the cascade. The design however may have an apex, if that makes sense.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thanks for taking the time to make the post, and a detailed one at that. I think i understand where you are coming from.

Before you read further, remember that definitions are not my strong point and how i see the following words changed a little after reading your last post.

Having said that what do you think of the below image/ terms?
I think how i understand the terms 'crown' and 'apex' is as follows:

Apex: The top of the tree. This could be living foliage/tissue, trunk and or jin or even part of a rock in a root over rock style. It is the top of the composition and usually the top of the 'compositional triangle' that is usually created in formal bonsai.

Crown: The top foliage of the tree. Sometimes this will be the top of the tree and therefore also be the apex but it may be lower than the apex in some cases when for example a jin is extending out of the top foliage.

So i still think that all trees will have both a crown and an apex (unless they are dead )

Having written that, i dont really know if there is one way of looking at it, although it is fun fleshing it out.

What do you think?


Joe

Ahhh. Yes. The next step. I believe we have come to the same place.

I totally agree with your descriptions of Apex and Crown, and your thoughts on the drawing. With Apex however I believe should start 'Top of the Design'. This is what you have described afterwards in that it could be the top of a rock.

The only different reference we are making I believe is that with the double line cascade, the upper portion is generally referred to as the Crown, and this is what I have been referring to, and thought you were also from the start. Our differing opinions seem to have been around my belief that the trunk forms the style, and therefore with Cascade, the trunk is the cascade (as in the drawing), and the crown is the upright portion that is optional (as in your tree). In the absence of a Crown on a Cascade, as in the drawing, the term Crown would default to the upper most foliage, which is a branch in the drawing.

I also do not believe there is one way of looking at anything, as we are all different. Definition and Description is what makes Bonsai Art, and Diversity and Design is what makes Bonsai Natural. Does that make sense

Tony

I think we are pretty much on the same page.

I still think that the trunk leads to the crown. Usually this it the thickest line although in some cases I think that you can have a heavy first branch and a thinner trunk.

That said I think that maybe what it comes down to is that we might call branch / trunks different things but end up with the same result in the end.

I'd have a cascade with a thin trunk and heavy first branch and you would have a cascade trunk with a branch supporting the crown foliage.

Joe.

Jow wrote:I think we are pretty much on the same page.

I still think that the trunk leads to the crown. Usually this it the thickest line although in some cases I think that you can have a heavy first branch and a thinner trunk.
Joe.

So does the trunk lead to the crown in what you marked on the previous drawing And whilst it does lead there, it doesn't stop there
Oops. I did it again

Jow wrote: That said I think that maybe what it comes down to is that we might call branch / trunks different things but end up with the same result in the end.

I'd have a cascade with a thin trunk and heavy first branch and you would have a cascade trunk with a branch supporting the crown foliage. Joe.

I can live with it.