AusBonsai

You're all rebells! shame on you

are there a list of these rules on the Wiki?
I think that for newbies, these are good foundations.
Are the Japanese rules the same/ similar/ completely different to the Chinese rules? Are there things like rules?

forget I asked … Should have had a 'Woman's Look'!

Potting large plants in tiny pots that require watering several times a day in hot dry weather. Similar to the ancient Asian habit of binding uperclass/wealthy women's feet so that they couldn't walk properly or work. It demonstrated that the "owner" was a man of substance who had the spare time and means to indulge "artistic ideals" and meet arbitrary rules of beauty at the expense of practicality, and in the case of women, basic standards of human decency.

Poor working men couldn't afford to have an incapacitated spouse so they needed to have wives who could walk, function normally, care for children and work in the household or the fields.

Hi Grant,
The 'rule' that irks me the most is that of the predominance of trees, regardless of species, that are trained as a single trunked tree, with the 'left, right, back' approach, and with all branches wired immediately downwards.
I have seen ths approach applied many times to port jackson fig, which if trained to resemble the natural growth habit of this species should have multiple trunks, and branches growing first upwards and then downwards.
What was it Naka said about training your bonsai as a tree and not vice versa.

Shane wrote:The rules that say: No more trees; You do not need that pot; Do not repot in the living room.

At least those are the ones I encounter most often.

I had someone look at my "Tree Of Many Faults" and said these are faults found in many trees in nature........ but this is bonsai it should not have them.

Took his suggestion and hacked the suggested branches off. (He drew a pic for me) Now i have no freakin idea of how to get it looking remotely like the pick and it still has 4 branches growing out of the one spot one of which is to be a new leader.

Probably my inexperience as i know i am not an artistic boned person but i feel at times some trees cannot be made to fit the rules and to try to make them do so you end up with a worse tree just for the sake of "The Rules"

Rules are great guide and if you can successfully achieve all the rules well done and will probably have a magnificent tree. But for me i feel a nice looking tree is just that, with or without rules

Just my 2c.

Regards
Rudy

Just saw this on Walter Pall's site and thought it appropriate to share here.

To the benefit of rules one can say just about what can be said to praise civil society. A man who strictly follows rules will never produce something tasteless, bad, as one who lets himself being modeled by laws and affluence never will be an unbearable neighbor, never a strange villain will he be; in contrast will all rules destroy the real feeling of nature and the true expression of nature, regardless of whatever you want to say about this.

Makes a lot of sense. The rules keep us from doing things that usually don't work, but they also keep us from realizing that sometimes things work better when we break them. If we don't have a few rules, bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. But if we all follow the rules blindly, then all our trees would look the same, and bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. The trick is in the balance - knowing which rules can be broken, why, and when.

lackhand wrote:Just saw this on Walter Pall's site and thought it appropriate to share here.

To the benefit of rules one can say just about what can be said to praise civil society. A man who strictly follows rules will never produce something tasteless, bad, as one who lets himself being modeled by laws and affluence never will be an unbearable neighbor, never a strange villain will he be; in contrast will all rules destroy the real feeling of nature and the true expression of nature, regardless of whatever you want to say about this.

Makes a lot of sense. The rules keep us from doing things that usually don't work, but they also keep us from realizing that sometimes things work better when we break them. If we don't have a few rules, bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. But if we all follow the rules blindly, then all our trees would look the same, and bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. The trick is in the balance - knowing which rules can be broken, why, and when.

Nicely Summed up Karl
Best piece of advice all year
ken

rudy wrote:I had someone look at my "Tree Of Many Faults" and said these are faults found in many trees in nature........ but this is bonsai it should not have them.

Took his suggestion and hacked the suggested branches off. (He drew a pic for me) Now i have no freakin idea of how to get it looking remotely like the pick and it still has 4 branches growing out of the one spot one of which is to be a new leader.

Probably my inexperience as i know i am not an artistic boned person but i feel at times some trees cannot be made to fit the rules and to try to make them do so you end up with a worse tree just for the sake of "The Rules"

Rules are great guide and if you can successfully achieve all the rules well done and will probably have a magnificent tree. But for me i feel a nice looking tree is just that, with or without rules

Just my 2c.

Regards


Rudy

Put the tree up and we will see if we can help.

Grant

kcpoole wrote:

lackhand wrote:Just saw this on Walter Pall's site and thought it appropriate to share here.

To the benefit of rules one can say just about what can be said to praise civil society. A man who strictly follows rules will never produce something tasteless, bad, as one who lets himself being modeled by laws and affluence never will be an unbearable neighbor, never a strange villain will he be; in contrast will all rules destroy the real feeling of nature and the true expression of nature, regardless of whatever you want to say about this.

Makes a lot of sense. The rules keep us from doing things that usually don't work, but they also keep us from realizing that sometimes things work better when we break them. If we don't have a few rules, bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. But if we all follow the rules blindly, then all our trees would look the same, and bonsai as a whole would be much worse off. The trick is in the balance - knowing which rules can be broken, why, and when.

Nicely Summed up Karl
Best piece of advice all year


ken

Austria and Germany are a good example of what can happen if rules are followed to closely; you end up being dictated to!

I like the easy going Oz attitude and a bit of experimenting.

Grant

I don't particularly dislike any of the "rules", as stated by in the post cut and paste from Walter Pall if the rules are followed then it is unlikely that a "Bad Bonsai" will be created. I do not follow them blindly or believe that there is not exceptions to each and everyone of the basic rules. However what irks me is is poor tree design which is then justified as being more "naturalistic appearance", when in actual fact the tree has been trained either with a complete lack of of knowledge of the rules, or a complete disregard for them and misses the very esence of what I believe Bonsai is all about, that being an artistic expression of nature, Not a Replication of what can be found in nature!

All to often I see trees presented on this (and other forums) which just do not "balance" . To me the use of space within the design is the key, branch location and negative space being equally important. The pot, tree rootage, trunk / trunk line, branch location, foliage all should compliment each other to create a visually balanced design, which give the viewer a "feeling" or "impression" of nature!

Sure don't blindly follow the rules and create cookie cutter Bonsai, however don't disregard them completely and create a tree in a pot which bares little resemblence to the spirit of Bonsai!

Not all nursery trees or collected stumps are have potential to be a "good bonsai".

I can almost feel the flame throwers being lit as I type this, however each to their own views and these are mine.

cheers,

Jeff

Perfectly put Jeff, Agree 100%.. They say that rules are made to be broken. But to break the rules, you must first know and understand the rules.. It is then that you will know how to get away with breaking them and create art which is dynamic and edgy, different but not uncomfortable.

I'm still a beginner, but I think in another 30 years, I'll still be abiding by the rules and creating good trees..

Adam

Agreed Jeff and Adam.

Ah the old "RULES" discussion, it makes me laugh as much as hearing the term "Natural" with bonsai.

Natural to me is having a tree in a ground and you don't touch it and let nature take its course, for me nothing what we do is natural in bonsai, its up to the skill of the artist working with the tree. Sure we want our Bonsai to look like trees, but even a single species can vary considerably because of location.

Rules, always a fun topic of discussion.

When I hear or read comments about rules, I like to equate it to kindergarden. In our early years we learn our alphabet and numbers, that allows us to learn mathematics and grammar/english, the older we get, the further we delve into each topic. They are the basic fundamentals so one can live and get on with life. Rules in bonsai are no different to being in kindergarden, perhaps rules is a poor choice of word because of the negative connotations it carries and that in itself puts alot of people off, or pushes them in a hurry to want to break them, as Adam just said, it helps to learn them first before wanting to break them.

Rather than say rules, I prefer to say the basics or fundamentals, liking it to the ABC's or 123's or a foundation to build upon. Then the further one learns and developes, the more one can deal with the extremes or even push the boundaries. In saying that, sometimes one needs to push too far to know how far one can go.

Again, great topic as there is no right or wrong answer.

Cheers

David
D

Somewhere upthread, the question was asked if anyone has a list of said Rules and are they online or in the WIKI

Well that is a very good Question IMHO, and does anyone have a copmplete List so I can whack in the wiki? then we can all add to them and then tear them to bits

Ken

CoGRedeMptioN wrote: are there a list of these rules on the Wiki?
I think that for newbies, these are good foundations.
Are the Japanese rules the same/ similar/ completely different to the Chinese rules? Are there things like rules?

Thinking about this subject and this question i did a little research and came up with a few
They are compiled from varios places on the web, and my memories from the first year at the Shool of Bonsai where they are discussed.

https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... _of_Bonsai

Have a lok and feel free to add any i have missed, or let me know if any are not really applicable.

it is important that we know of, and are conversant as they have been developed over many years with the aim of quantifying them so that we mortals can understand what makes a tree that "looks right". By knowing that we can then understand when to disregard them in our own trees.

Ok now for me to stand back and get ready to duck and run

Ken