AusBonsai

klaery wrote:Those are my thoughts but I am just a beginner and none of my trees are anywhere near this standard - opinion may be invalid.

No such thing as an invalid opinion klaery, everyone can offer something and please never discredit yourself just on the basis of starting off your journey into Bonsai, which I do see far too often. 360 degrees make up a circle and how boring would it be if only 10 degrees were used.

bodhidharma wrote:My comment was intended to all the viewers and people who have commented and, as a viewer, i also am entitled to comment. Unfortunately you have read it as a personal affront as, i presume, it is your tree? You,as the creator of this tree should learn to not take things so personally .

Hi Bohdi, if your original comment was intended to all the viewers and people who have commented, I am curious, how should one have taken it ? Just so I can understand your point of view.

Cheers

David

EDITED: fixed up the quote, syntax/grammar

Well that got out of hand quickly.

In no way did I mean any disrespect to the work/ers on this tree, the transformation is vast.

Yes my inexperience will not let me grasp fully the enormity/work involved with this transformation, and hence, Bodhi's comments do ring home to me somewhat.

It still does not appeal to me in that photo, hence im looking forward to a 360, to get a better feel for the tree and hopefully a different appreciation.

With that said i did find the inexperience/ experience comments a little insulting, thankfully ive got a thick skin and ill continue to give my opinion continue to eagerly read everyone elses

Dave

MoGanic wrote:If its okay with you Bodhi, would you mind elaborating on your comment a little? I am inexperienced compared to many, however I never neglect the amount of work required to achieve such a standard of Bonsai. Especially not on this particular tree.

Hi Mo, experience can only be gained by time and effort and insight. Some people have a natural ability and some do not, this is the way of the world. I have met a person who has been doing Bonsai for less time than i have, and his insight and development outstripped mine. Even if you cross the "t,s" and dot the "i,s" some will always do it better. So, is it better to ignore the person doing it better or, embrace the person doing it better. Being open and humble to all experience , for me anyway, improves my skillset no end. You will view a tree differently in twenty years time than you do now, that is a fact. Humility and experience opens the eye of learning and seeing differently.

bodhidharma wrote:

MoGanic wrote:If its okay with you Bodhi, would you mind elaborating on your comment a little? I am inexperienced compared to many, however I never neglect the amount of work required to achieve such a standard of Bonsai. Especially not on this particular tree.

Hi Mo, experience can only be gained by time and effort and insight. Some people have a natural ability and some do not, this is the way of the world. I have met a person who has been doing Bonsai for less time than i have, and his insight and development outstripped mine. Even if you cross the "t,s" and dot the "i,s" some will always do it better. So, is it better to ignore the person doing it better or, embrace the person doing it better. Being open and humble to all experience , for me anyway, improves my skillset no end. You will view a tree differently in twenty years time than you do now, that is a fact. Humility and experience opens the eye of learning and seeing differently.

Thanks for the clarification Bodhi. I am certainly glad you were not generalizing that all those who are inexperienced are unable to appreciate such a tree.

I agree that experience leads to a greater depth of insight and different people may require different levels of experience.

I will leave my part in this discussion as that comment and hope that the owner of the tree does not feel offended at my earlier critique.

DavidWilloughby wrote:Hi Bohdi, if your original comment was intended to all the viewers and people who have commented, I am curious, how should one have taken it ? Just so I can understand your point of view.

Hi David, not really following your question but, maybe this? For me it is this simple, and i only speak for me. The tree, in my eyes, has been improved beyond all doubt and for mine, it is easy to see. Some who think it hasnt been improved, and i am looking at their time in Bonsai, maybe havent developed their skills enough to understand the amount of work it took to get the tree to this point? I dont know, and i am not wanting to cause a fuss, but the tree has improved beyond measure. But i guess that is just my opinion.

MoGanic wrote:Thanks for the clarification Bodhi. I am certainly glad you were not generalizing that all those who are inexperienced are unable to appreciate such a tree.

Thanks Mo, and on the contrary, everybody should enjoy this tree but those involved on any level of Bonsai will enjoy it just that little bit more.

I, too will now leave this thread alone as i do not want to inflame the situation further. If anybody wants to continue this with me please do so via p.m.

Unfortunately opinions are like an anus every one has one. Some times they a blocked for some reason, other time they run uncontrollably.

Please be nice if you do not agree there is always the PM and not the forum.

You can get sanctioned for it, been there done that.

Cheers Pup

bodhidharma wrote:

DavidWilloughby wrote:Hi Bohdi, if your original comment was intended to all the viewers and people who have commented, I am curious, how should one have taken it ? Just so I can understand your point of view.

Hi David, not really following your question but, maybe this? For me it is this simple, and i only speak for me. The tree, in my eyes, has been improved beyond all doubt and for mine, it is easy to see. Some who think it hasnt been improved, and i am looking at their time in Bonsai, maybe havent developed their skills enough to understand the amount of work it took to get the tree to this point? I dont know, and i am not wanting to cause a fuss, but the tree has improved beyond measure. But i guess that is just my opinion.

Bodhi, no discredit to your experience, and I certainly do understand where you and others are coming from and I personally always love seeing your trees that you share on the forums, but those of us who prefer the first picture are not looking at the time and work that has gone into the tree, rather just,... we prefer the look of the first picture, putting it simply. In my opinion it doesn't take into account your inexperience or perception, but rather just the fact that from an artistic point of view, I too, personally prefer the look of the first tree as it has a rough natural quality that i much prefer, as I often find myself steering away from the traditional and formal bonsai styling. The tree may have been on deaths door for all we know, but I still prefer the look of it.

Art is art, and if you see an oil based canvas in an art gallery that has taken the artist clearly months to produce, it may not be to your liking irrespective of the time and effort gone into it. Of course I am always amazed at these works of art, but, and this is true for all forms of art, visually you either like it or you don't. Essentially yes, you are dead right that your taste of what you prefer can change in time yes, but it doesn't mean that because you haven't got superior skills or expertise than others, or have been into a hobby for a longer period of time that your view will change on what you prefer as a rough gem, or a polished diamond. My wife and I are a great example, as I wanted an uncut natural mineral to be used on her engagement ring, but she wanted the traditional formal cut and polished diamond ring, and after 10 years of being with her, I still love the look of a garnet or amethyst set and kept in its natural rock setting that was made over time naturally, rather than the months of time and effort to place the same mineral into a polished refined look.

Personally I have always preferred the rough wild look of a bonsai over a well trimmed and maintained look. In fact I often cringe when I see the little foliage pads all neatly placed together, but that is, as everyone knows, just an opinion. Opinions are not wrong, and are what makes us human.

As I said, this discussion is about two photos. Therefore, opinions both for and against can't really be considered definitive. The discussion has certainly raised issues about over-grooming which are important - for an antidote to the "every pad dead flat" school of grooming can I suggest the Dan Robinson book "Gnarly branches, ancient trees", where every branch has been scrupulously arranged to look "natural" - it's a very fine effect indeed. It's much more difficult to achieve than grooming branches to a formula.

I'm surprised at Ric's intemperate abuse - I would have thought if he had an issue with how his tree has been shaped, Leigh would be more than happy to discuss it with him.

I'm not a fan of over-groomed trees, but in the bark this is an exceptional tree, beautifully maintained, and Ric should be proud of it. In my opinion.

(And by the way, the more photos I take of trees the less I trust them. They're only a two-dimensional impression.)

(And another thing. Anyone who hasn't changed at least one strongly-held opinion every five years isn't growing. Always express your opinions as if this one might be the one you're about to grow out of. It's less embarrassing in the long run.)

End of sermon. Now everyone go and have a cup of tea or a beer and settle down.

Gavin

There is a documentry called "Bonsai - Works of divinity" it follows Shinji Suzukis work for a year in Japan.

He enters a compitition at the end and hes tosssing up weather to enter with a very stylised tree (which he knows the judges will love) or a more natural looking one. He goes and meets a 7000 year old cedar on this island and realises that he has to try and start to change the way the judges view Bonsai. So he goes with the more natural one. He ends up coming 3rd with two very stylised trees beating him (probably the most incredible trees ive seen). The one that wins is a pine that looks like the artist has used a vernier caliper on each of the thousands of needles to make them all EXACTLY the same length!

This was filmed in 2001 I think. It would be interesting to see if these judges have changed in the last 10 years. Maybe the younger generations like more natural looking trees. Who knows?

Ive only been into Bonsai for about 2 years but I definatley perfer the second pic. It just looks more finished to me and I can see it getting better as the years go on.

In my opinion if you go too natural I feel like you are moving away from the actual "art" its self and just letting the tree do its own thing in a pot.....

GavinG wrote: and Ric should be proud of it. In my opinion.

This line has made me come out of p.m. mode Gavin, wonderfully put and the whole post is well said. This tree would be pride of place on my bench anytime.

OK guys the next member to post a disrespectful comment gets a week in the bin. As has been mentioned here this is a public forum so EVERYONE can post a comment provided it well thought out and considerate of others. Being on the forum is a privilege not a right and that privilege can be revoked at any time.

My of this style of tree is that it's not my cup of tea. I find my eye likes more "natural" styled trees and to me the tree looks too contrived. Kudos to the volunteers and staff at the NBPCA for dramatically improving the health of the tree

This thread now deserves a direct link to the 360.

viewforum.php?f=112

I'd like to think after viewing the 360 that some of those posters that weren't so keen on the transformation have changed their mind.
I personally believe that the 360 clearly represents how amazing this tree is from almost every angle now.
It really does look an absolute treat well done Ric and NBPCA.

Yep an amazing bonsai.
That 360 shows off just how stunning that bonsai is

I am biased of course but I think this is the most stunningly, breathtakingly beautiful bonsai. In fact, in my opinion, I think it is the best Red pine bonsai in the world.

Grant