AusBonsai

Well said Ryan!
The Waverley Bonsai Group received an email the other day from a past member.
He said he and a young mate were members back in the 90's but ended up leaving as they felt left out.
I told him that he is welcome to come and check us out. I also told him we are not elitist but a family club catering to all levels. I sent him some of our newsletters which he liked very much.
I think Tuesday night we may have a new member.
Gerard, ask your members what they think.

Yep the Waverley club does a great job of encouraging beginners and new members. As do a lot of others. There seems to be plenty of focus on encouraging those new to the art, which is great, but if every club is doing that, what's driving those that aren't new?

Supporting beginners and having an exhibit for the outright best trees aren't mutually exclusive IMO. I was lucky enough to see kokufu ten as a beginner, for me, that did way more to inspire and drive my bonsai ambition than the opportunity to display one of my 'not quite there' trees.

Most beginners won't get to see kokufu ten, but sadly enough, they don't even have the opportunity to see an exhibit of the outright best trees in Victoria.

Now, as I like to think I'm slowly progressing from that beginner stage, what is most disheartening for me, is this lack of acknowledgment or accolades for the elite level of the art here in Australia.

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Jason, would you be interested in helping organise a Melbourne Bonsai Spectacular where all the southern clubs can be asked to participate?
I say southern clubs as you may not be aware of the Bonsai Federation of Australia southern.
This covers WA to Vic and our Taswegian friends across the straight.
Naturally we may not get trees from perth or hobart as they will have problems taking them back but you never know.
What do you say?

Zyggy.

Zyggy, I'm time poor, but it sounds like a great idea, I'd be happy to help where I can.

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Been watching this with interest. When I first got into bonsai I went to a few exhibitions and thought I might as well give up now as I'll never have a tree this good (all trees were perfect). I then decided to join a a club and started visiting some. The first I went to made me feel like I wasn't good enough to be there, my trees were sticks in pots not bonsai and this club only has high quality bonsai. My feeling was confirmed after I left my contact details to look at joining the club and no one bothered contacting me, obviously not worth be a member.
I nearly ditched my trees and walked away from bonsai altogether. I then went to the Waverly Bonsai club show. They allow all levels of bonsai to be displayed. As I walked around I was amazed by the top quality trees and encouraged by the beginners trees. I went away thinking I could do this. I joined the club and am now on the committee. After attending a few meeting I was strongly encouraged to display a tree at the club nights. I was embarrassed to display my sticks in pots but what I found was once I started displaying trees at our club nights my desire to better my trees exploded. I started looking at quality trees in a different light. I looked at how the tree was displayed not just the tree.
Now that my trees have improved I am tempted to look at beginners trees and think should they really be in our show. Then I remember I would not be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for some beginners trees in the show I went to. I recently had this very discussion with one of our most experienced members and we discussed the beginners trees. His opinion was not to get rid of them from our show but spend time through out the year helping them improve their trees to lift the standard of the show. His idea was to have members bring in the trees they plan on displaying at the show and have workshops throughout the year to work on and improved them. Not exclude them.
Interestingly enough a comment was made about another show (which only has high quality trees) that the trees only belong to a select few members and no one else gets an opportunity to display. Not sure how true that is but I find it sad if it is true.
I feel to exclude beginners makes us a closed group and that doesn't do anything to growing bonsai in Australia. As I said I used think I should just give up cause my trees will never look like that. Now I strive to make my trees look like that. Somethimes I think the experienced members forget they too started out with sticks in pots once.

Josh.

While not of the same experience as Josh, I must agree whole heartedly with him!

I'm not saying that beginners trees should be intermingled with the top-of-the-shelf displays! Not on your Nelly! There has to be competition between equally ranked displays, thats a No-Brainer ...
and while it is true that most visitors want to see the "Good Trees", I challenge you to say that they won't or wouldn't enjoy the journey that young Bonsai-ists are going thru! I love seeing the beauties on show and some inspire me, others are just unobtainable (at this stage) for me. I doubt I'm the only one!

When Australia gets to the level where we have 'Monet', 'Van Gogh' or 'DaVinci' level trees in plentitude then we will have Art Gallery style shows and the beginners trees won't be included... isn't there a national Arboretum al ready ... ?

Josh, totally agree mate, Waverley and most probably lots of other clubs are doing an awesome job of encouraging beginners to bonsai. It's the first club i joined and was welcomed into! I have no problem with that, it's to be commended! The point I'm trying to get across is that there also needs to be some focus at the other end, to drive those beginners to pursue it to the next level. From where I'm standing this is currently lacking? Or maybe I'm just overly enthusiastic and haven't been on board long enough to see it? Lol..

Elmar wrote: When Australia gets to the level where we have 'Monet', 'Van Gogh' or 'DaVinci' level trees in plentitude then we will have Art Gallery style shows...

How do you know we don't without a platform to exhibit them? You would be surprised at what some people have tucked away in their back yards! You also have to understand that these top class exhibition trees you see overseas on the internet, don't look like that year round. Most trees are prepared for months(even years) leading up to a show to ensure they are at their peak. Detail wiring, refinement and tweaking to get them to their best. This attention to detail is probably missing in Australia because there is nothing to drive it.

I recently borrowed a book from the Waverley club library showing 10yrs of the Noelanders exhibit in Europe. The trees in the first show, 10+yrs back, were equivelant quality to trees I have seen here in Australia, it could easily have been a top class exhibit here with our trees. But the change in the quality of trees as the years went on was amazing, I have no doubt that having that exhibit and similar ones like it since, pushed the quality and skill level of the bonsai in Europe in just those few years!

Again, not trying to suggest we take anything away from the efforts to encourage the beginners, just don't neglect the pointy end of the art




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JaseH wrote:

Elmar wrote: When Australia gets to the level where we have 'Monet', 'Van Gogh' or 'DaVinci' level trees in plentitude then we will have Art Gallery style shows...

How do you know we don't without a platform to exhibit them? You would be surprised at what some people have tucked away in their back yards!

I was being sarcastic. Not my greatest asset, I agree.

I was attempting (poorly) that we have an art equivalent already showing some of the best trees from all over Australia ... I have had the good fortune to visit an ausbonsai members back yard and have been speechless, to say the least, at the examples of their work. Seemed to me that their 'fresh' new or collected work is far superior to anything I have had for a while trying to follow the right techniques in the hope of producing something worthwhile ... So I know there is great material out there!

Generally in agreeance with Joshs' post. much like yourself...

Great topic and many good points made. For my two bobs......
Drop the beginners section altogether and create a 'Pre-bonsai' section apart from 'Advanced Bonsai' section where the techniques of bonsai can be seen in their unadulterated unhidden state. This would encourage beginners by respecting their efforts but not degrade the primo bonsai show .Love Jeffs comments about venue. I believe outdoor garden settings/settings in a natural environment etc will beat a most other backdrops for a bonsai show and 'speak' more to the wider public.

fossil finder wrote:Great topic and many good points made. For my two bobs......
Drop the beginners section altogether and create a 'Pre-bonsai' section apart from 'Advanced Bonsai' section where the techniques of bonsai can be seen in their unadulterated unhidden state. This would encourage beginners by respecting their efforts but not degrade the primo bonsai show .Love Jeffs comments about venue. I believe outdoor garden settings/settings in a natural environment etc will beat a most other backdrops for a bonsai show and 'speak' more to the wider public.

Hi Fos, unfortunately outdoor/tented settings are a nightmare, not only for the unpredictable weather, but also security especially on a multi day show - it's been tried before and things go walking. Also, for those not aware, the venue hire fees for a simple two day exhibition is by far the single biggest expense most clubs have on their books annually (even bigger than the cost for 12 months of club meeting venue hire!) therefore clubs do what they can afford, and as such paid entry (while it doesn't cover venue hire) acts as an important subsidy to the overall cost. Galleries are great if you've only a got small number of bonsai on show?, and hire fees can be coved by potential sales revenue?, or generous sponsorship?, (Jeff I'd be interested to see more coverage of your event and hear some more details - number of bonsai on show - venue affordability - and the choice/viability of free entry please), but when you've got more than 100 trees on show & trading room & demonstrations, you need a more suitable venue.

Wow. Great topic Gerard!
I have read this topic with interest, and mulled over a lot of memories in my head before entering into this conversation.
Though I've been a member of this forum for over a year, I have yet to stick my neck out on a contentious issue, but I feel I am well qualified for this one - as I have experienced both sides of this story. So I may as well have my .

I started bonsai, and enthusiastically joined a Sydney club when I was 12 years old - 29 years ago. The members were great to me, and very encouraging, but I can relate to Ziggys post:

Zyggy R wrote:The Waverley Bonsai Group received an email the other day from a past member.
He said he and a young mate were members back in the 90's but ended up leaving as they felt left out.

Although it was not the intent of any of the club members.... I felt left out. First of all, I was 12... that made me by far the youngest member of the club, and around 40 years younger than the average member age . So, a little intimidating. Second, at such a young age, the horticultural aspects were a little over my head. 3rd - funds.... although my parents supported me in all my activities, good bonsai costs money - whether that be soil mix, ferts, tree stock, pots, stands, tools, wire, benches, watering systems, getting to nurseries etc. etc.
Never the less, I persisted. I stayed 6 years and persevered... as the bug had bitten. However, in that time, I never felt any of my trees were ever worthy of display, and never showed any. After 6 years, girls and partying become more of a priority... and bonsai took a back seat for nearly 20 years.
However, I was lucky. My dad watered and maintained my trees for two decades, while I pruned the trees every few years to keep them somewhat in check.

20 years later, and I am much wiser. I have excellent stock, good trees, and a wealth of knowledge. I have also been lucky enough to spend my fair share time in Japan - which is priceless in regards to gaining knowledge of how the best do it. Now I see the other side of the coin, and I sympathise with new members in my current club. But I also see the intimidating aspects, and other issues, from a very different perspective.

JaseH wrote:i have discussed this recently with a few of my bonsai peers. I am strongly of the opinion that best way to promote the art and push the standard of bonsai is to exhibit the best trees in the best possible manner. Getting a tree to exhibition quality should be a goal - a long, hard earned one. That's what pushes us to produce quality and improve and innovate. To have a tree represented in a show should feel like an achievement.

Deep down I agree with JaseH. The hard yards should earn the accolades. However, this doesn't help club membership and participation. To gain any depth of field in bonsai, you need to keep the beginners long-term. You will never have depth in Australia like you do in Japan.... it is both cultural and generational in Japan. Here in Oz, it is still a niche individual hobby. But a good compromise is a separate beginners-section at the shows to encourage them and keep them interested. So I reckon Grahame and Waverly Bonsai Group are on the money in this regard.

Jeff wrote:1. The Venue – I have been to many shows over the years that have been filled with excellent examples of bonsai. All of the specimens ranged from very good to excellent however when I entered the exhibition, all I noticed were the basketball hoops. It’s a shame. Would paintings or sculptures of this quality be presented in this manner? No. I feel like it is a lack of respect to the art form and to the artist. If Bonsai is to grow, we cannot present it as some kind of horticultural sideshow. Perhaps it is time to move away from the scout halls and gymnasiums of the suburbs and consider appropriate venues to display art.

100% agree with Jeff. I don't believe we take enough care, or respect attention to detail in Oz. A bonsai tree display is about the whole display, and not just the tree. This can be a problem with regards to club funding, but can be overcome with a little more effort. To give you an example, this is a tree as displayed in a Sydney show today : But funding problems extend further than that in my experience. Whilst I am nearly 30 years into this hobby, I still find myself the second-youngest member of my current club. The current typical demographics of the bonsai hobby in my area consist mainly of retirees. This presents two problems with regards to depth of quality - first (and I am putting this as diplomatically as possible) the majority of members don't have a 30-year outlook for their trees. Second, the typical retiree income in a rural area does not allow the needed funding on a personal level, or club level, to achieve the required detail, quality, or venues that we would like to see. So, given these two obstacles, I don't think it is practical to be aiming for the 'master' quality of displays we see elsewhere. It is just not going to happen any time soon. But that should not detract from the love of the bonsai, or the inspiration and motivation we get from seeing a top-class tree, or displaying the best that we have.

One issue that has not been broached in this thread, but IMO cannot be ignored (dare I venture there ) is politics. There still seems to be a very clicky network, and obvious pecking order in the bonsai fraternity. There are still some clubs experiencing political infighting. And to some extent, a bonsai 'elite' group that is more reflective of the time spent in the inner circle, rather than the quality if their work. This is probably the most intimidating aspect of the hobby to me in Australia today.... just saying.

Hi Wrcmad
That's what I've been trying to say, That at the shows , displays call them what you will , you have an area where novices can display their stuff. Not in amongst the top shelf trees , that wouldn't be fair to the people with the show quality trees. If there is a small area for novices to display some stuff that they've worked hard on , but it hasn't had the years to develop in the show stopper yet. 1 it helps to build their confidence and 2 they will aspire to keep working on their trees to get it to the next level . This helps to keep the novice in the club and boosts club membership
peterb

wrcmad wrote:Wow. Great topic Gerard!
I have read this topic with interest, and mulled over a lot of memories in my head before entering into this conversation.
Though I've been a member of this forum for over a year, I have yet to stick my neck out on a contentious issue, but I feel I am well qualified for this one - as I have experienced both sides of this story. So I may as well have my .

I started bonsai, and enthusiastically joined a Sydney club when I was 12 years old - 29 years ago. The members were great to me, and very encouraging, but I can relate to Ziggys post:

Zyggy R wrote:The Waverley Bonsai Group received an email the other day from a past member.
He said he and a young mate were members back in the 90's beut ended up leaving as they felt left out.

Although it was not the intent of any of the club members.... I felt left out. First of all, I was 12... that made me by far the youngest member of the club, and around 40 years younger than the average member age.

I am a member of both Waverley and the vic native club. My 12 year daughter is also a member of both. What I like is she is treated as a member in her own right. It's not like she just comes along cause I'm there. She is a member, she is treated like one. She has been encouraged to display trees and I can see the positive effect this has had on her in respect to putting extra effort into her trees. She sees the quality of the experienced members and wants her trees to be the best they can.
I know if I had joined the other club I spoke of earlier my daughter would definitely not be a part of the bonsai family and this age group is the future of bonsai.
I would encourage each club to look at the age of its members, do you have younger members who will carry on the future of bonsai. If not why?? I often see our older members discussing the trees on display with my daughter, they ask her about her trees. She had a tree in our show this year which was fantastic for her. If she was excluded for showing trees or being a part of the club then who do we leave the future of bonsai too.
At our show I was able to talk to general public members about how to get a tree to show quality. I could show then a beginners tree and walk them through the journey to a show tree. They could see where trees start from and where they end up.
I think having a top trees exhibition is a great idea but I think we need to be careful in our club shows we are not exclusive. I heard a comment made about another show that the trees were basically the same as last year and it's the same 5-6 members displaying their trees each year. If this is true I find that very sad.



Josh.

Very interesting thoughts on here. Though you've got to remember - This is Australia... give everyone a fair go.

The idea is to get people involved, to love what they do, and to learn and have fun. It is that simple. Anything else is just overcomplicating it.

Remember, the public don't see the rules of bonsai and they literally see what they see, they will simply like what they like - flaws and all. -
However, your perceptions and interests will change over time as you get more involved in bonsai. So a new enthusiast is going to see a favourite tree for very different reasons than a master would. In turn, the public may take a keen interest because of the diversity through their eyes, and eventually they will give it a go and thus in time will probably join to get more assistance.

Don't get blindsided by pride. Give everyone a fair go and the art of bonsai, and your club too will grow and flourish.
If your club doesn't feel comfortable displaying beginner trees 'next' to advanced material, then the suggestions already made are more than adequate to have a 'beginners area'.

Thanks everyone, I am pleased with the responses so far.

wrcmad wrote: One issue that has not been broached in this thread, but IMO cannot be ignored (dare I venture there ) is politics. There still seems to be a very clicky network, and obvious pecking order in the bonsai fraternity. There are still some clubs experiencing political infighting. And to some extent, a bonsai 'elite' group that is more reflective of the time spent in the inner circle, rather than the quality if their work. This is probably the most intimidating aspect of the hobby to me in Australia today.... just saying.

Thanks wrkmad for having the courage.
For several years I have been heartened by what I see as the 'breaking down' of these barriers. I do make an effort to support as many people as possible by attending meetings and shows. This forum has done a wonderful job in enabling communication between people who previously did not associate with each other because of political barriers. The idea that it is some sort of competition where we are trying to out do each other disappoints me and the desire to be inclusive was the reason for starting the conversation. Sadly there are still people with an axe to grind! Hopefully the love for bonsai will bring people together.

Zyggy R wrote: Gerard, ask your members what they think.

That is what I am doing is it not? Only a few responses from our members so far but hopefully they will talk to me face to face.

Josh wrote: I heard a comment made about another show that the trees were basically the same as last year and it's the same 5-6 members displaying their trees each year. If this is true I find that very sad.
Josh.

Every club will have its core contributors but this comment is........ even more "sad". Large club or small they are making an effort and should be supported.