AusBonsai

Rory, I agree that the density of foliage on the later pic needs thinning to conform more to the image (keep it looking ancient). However that is just a question of maintenance which needs to be carried out regularly. It's also very important that procumbens junipers are allowed a year off every now and then to regain vigor otherwise they slowly decline.
It's easy enough to prune and wire the secondary branches and add more jin from time to time.
I'm not sure what you mean about the dead branches on your tree. In an upright tree like this, as long as most of the main jins leave the trunk at more or less the same angle as the live branches, I don't see a problem. They can be long or short.
Older ones will be shorter than more recent ones. Also I think it's important no keep in mind that we can't style bonsai exactly like natural trees due to scale and viewing angle restrictions etc.

I understand what you are saying about the health of the foliage. It is more so that just it appears quite ordered (the branching structure) of the live growth in the 2nd photo that erks me. I'll just take your word for it - not having ever grown them myself.

In regards to the branching of the jin and live branches on the wild tree - it was more of an observation on that tree, as I've seen trees in nature where the deadwood is almost the whole twisted trunk and the live foliage and branches do look a bit different to the way the dead branches look on the deadwood of the trunk. So I'm not actually saying the 2nd photo looks wrong, but just different.

For my liking, if the stock has deadwood on it, then the opposite side of the deadwood looks really great if it has more foliage growing out over this - showing that the side that has the deadwood is being subjected to more extremes than from the other which managed to survive.
It just creates a more realistic look when this is pulled off well and is usually seen more often like that in wild examples.

Personal aesthetic preferences aside, I'm quite surprised that some people are prepared to overlook crucial bonsai design fundamentals such as nebari, basal flare and trunk taper in preference for "finished" or "neat" or "refined". I'm not chucking criticism here, it's just really interesting to delve into how we look at what is presented to us, the responses have been great and well explained from both sides of the fence.

Once again, great thread, thanks for the brain food Mike

Cheers,
Mojo

Let's not kid ourselves here, these are both exciting trees.
However seeing as we are picking them to pieces, I might say that neither is my favourite.
The no 1 tree, a more highly stylized tree, appears as though it is about to fall over to the left, impaling me with the rather pointy looking jin. Perhaps if it were planted more to the right?
The second tree does appear more natural, which I enjoy, however the colour of the shari is so laser teeth white bright that it feels contrary to the otherwise natural feel.
I think the winner for me is the rather pretty accent plant.

Great and interesting thread.

I'm not really a fan of either tree in their current shapes. (But let's face it I'd kill to have them both)

No 1 has a boring lower trunk, and poorly placed branches. It looks like a European styling and has a somewhat clinical restricted feel to it. It would be a good candidate for an air layer, root graft or kimura's root shortening to make a powerful twisty little tree. The foliage masses don't really add much dynamism to it.

No 2 looks like it's been let go. And the recent pic of it the foliage is more uniform but it has lost the dynamic movement it had.

I think the happy medium is somewhere between the two approaches of manicured and totally un-tamed.

I also think that to get there you first need a structured neat wiring job that can be grown out somewhat into more free looking clouds vs manicured pads.

The below tree is by shinji Suzuki who toes this line really well in modern Japanese bonsai.

Thoughts?

Hi Joe, I'm sure I have a hi res of this tree somewhere, I'll see if I can locate it.

Cheers,
Mojo

Mike are these both your tree's?

Jow wrote:Great and interesting thread.

I'm not really a fan of either tree in their current shapes. (But let's face it I'd kill to have them both)

No 1 has a boring lower trunk, and poorly placed branches. It looks like a European styling and has a somewhat clinical restricted feel to it. It would be a good candidate for an air layer, root graft or kimura's root shortening to make a powerful twisty little tree. The foliage masses don't really add much dynamism to it.

No 2 looks like it's been let go. And the recent pic of it the foliage is more uniform but it has lost the dynamic movement it had.

I think the happy medium is somewhere between the two approaches of manicured and totally un-tamed.

I also think that to get there you first need a structured neat wiring job that can be grown out somewhat into more free looking clouds vs manicured pads.

The below tree is by shinji Suzuki who toes this line really well in modern Japanese bonsai.

Thoughts?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1455090730.390634.jpg

Hey Jow. I agree that you need to keep some kind of order or there's chaos. However I wouldn't call No2 totally untamed. If you want to see that check out Dan Robinsons work!
Suzuki has a good eye. I like a lot of his work, including the juniper above. Superb material and thoughtfully styled. I like the fact that he has kept the low branch without worrying about the must have triangle. Not crazy about the crown. It's a bit too even and heavy but that's a small detail.
He has a really nice natural looking white pine which I love. I'll try to find a pic. But that prize winning twin trunk needle juniper of his is (or was) really awful in my opinion. Looked like it belonged in a manicured Japanese garden rather than a wild mountain side. Not a single needle out of place! A good example of styling to win the prize (which he did)

Boics wrote:Mike are these both your tree's?

Surely you jest!

treeman wrote:

Jow wrote:Great and interesting thread.

I'm not really a fan of either tree in their current shapes. (But let's face it I'd kill to have them both)

No 1 has a boring lower trunk, and poorly placed branches. It looks like a European styling and has a somewhat clinical restricted feel to it. It would be a good candidate for an air layer, root graft or kimura's root shortening to make a powerful twisty little tree. The foliage masses don't really add much dynamism to it.

No 2 looks like it's been let go. And the recent pic of it the foliage is more uniform but it has lost the dynamic movement it had.

I think the happy medium is somewhere between the two approaches of manicured and totally un-tamed.

I also think that to get there you first need a structured neat wiring job that can be grown out somewhat into more free looking clouds vs manicured pads.

The below tree is by shinji Suzuki who toes this line really well in modern Japanese bonsai.

Thoughts?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1455090730.390634.jpg

But that prize winning twin trunk needle juniper of his is (or was) really awful in my opinion. Looked like it belonged in a manicured Japanese garden rather than a wild mountain side. Not a single needle out of place! A good example of styling to win the prize (which he did)

I don't think that it was styling to win a prize so much. More likely: a crazily famous historic tree, the right owners name attached to it and the right year for prizes to be awarded to certain people.

Have a look through most kokufu albums. The first few pages are usually the prize winning trees and while many are manicured many are also not and are more in keeping with the above juniper.

But yes Suzuki and most other Japanese growers have a mix of styles of trees. I guess they have to appeal to a wide customer base.

Rory wrote: Here is a natural version of it in the wild. It is more so the foliage that I have an issue with in Mikes photo. But that's just me
Notice on the wild tree, the jinned branches look exactly the same as the live branches, just dead.

Nice find
as you say the amount foliage gives it away

Ken

treeman wrote:Suzuki has a good eye. I like a lot of his work, including the juniper above. Superb material and thoughtfully styled. I like the fact that he has kept the low branch without worrying about the must have triangle. Not crazy about the crown. It's a bit too even and heavy but that's a small detail.
He has a really nice natural looking white pine which I love. I'll try to find a pic. But that prize winning twin trunk needle juniper of his is (or was) really awful in my opinion. Looked like it belonged in a manicured Japanese garden rather than a wild mountain side. Not a single needle out of place! A good example of styling to win the prize (which he did)

I think this is the tree Mike is referring to. I agree with the statement that it way too manicured, but I appreciate that at least there is noticeable variance in the size, shape, angle, depth and spacing of the foliage pads, you don't always get that. US artist Matt Reel was reportedly the most recent stylist when this pic was taken.

Cheers,
Mojo

Is the Goyo you like here?

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/09/09/shi ... ai-garden/

Cheers,
Mojo

I'm more at home with no.2---but I would like to see no.1 after a couple months without any further work, to see it with softer ,less defined lines

yes both exceptional, the trouble for me with tree 2 is the fact that extensive work has obviously been done to expose, refine and preserve the jin/deadwood, while keeping a kept but natural looking canopy. If you really want to pull off the natural look a less man made trunk would be far more effective. To me it looks like a half finished refined tree while the first is finished refined.