AusBonsai

Pup wrote:Brett I think our little repartee is finally getting to the crux. You have advocated the design principals for a long time.
Now we have members understanding that, philosophy and hopefully discuss it more.

That way we all benefit JUST remember this Art form has been practised for many centuries by, the Chinese Koreans Japanese.
Then the western world, who do not understand, naturally Wabi Sabi.

So we needed those that were handed down from father to son to grandson as a natural progression. To be formalised which they were for exhibition purposes.

Then interpreted by the western world.

A Couple of years ago may be more, Robert Steven the well known Indonesian bonsai teacher was here in WA.
His opening gambit was.
The Japanese have got it wrong, he lost a lot of his audience at that point, he did try to get them back. He did not.

So you must understand those ( rules ) guidelines at all times, and also your audience. Never talk down to them.

Here we are not talking directly we are typing, so we have to be doubly careful as we post. So as not to push just our point of view but what is relevant.
To the discussion that way as I said at the beginning we all benefit from this.
Pup

after a couple of quick online dictionary searches i believe i can take that as a compliment
i think everyone can benefit from opening there minds to this topic and not being hard and fast with stubborn opinions.
anyway i got lots more reference reading to do if i am gonna keep up with this topic

Very wise words Mr Pup. I was thinking much the same thing last night and was wondering how I could explain myself better without getting short with anyone. I am but a beginner in this and I am learning as I go but I am not a friend of ignorance and become short when I feel comments are put forward with very little thought but I will try harder.
I did come up with what I would call an acceptable area of agreement that I will endeavour to explain.
Often when we come across a falsity in order to get our point across in a short time to a majority of people it is simplified so much that the pendulum often swings back way to far.
That is what I believe has happened with “The Rules of Bonsai” In recent research I have discovered that In 1957, The Japanese Art of Miniature Trees and Landscapes by Yuji Yoshimura and Giovanna M. Halford was published. This was seen as the "Bonsai Bible in English." It is from this work that the 'rules' of bonsai emerged.
They where followed religiously by the western world to create “authentic bonsai” After some time I imagine as we know Bonsai progression is often slow especially when learning from trial and error, it was realised that they just did not work as a set of rigid rules. This gave birth to suggestions of Learn the rules and then forget them, They are guidelines not rules, Style your bonsai how you see a tree, the rules don’t make real trees, Rules shmools, and the like. I think these comments are just as silly as following the rules religiously without thinking and has caused the pendulum to swing back too far the other way. I see an area in between These design principles are actually an amazing set of tools that are used to create an image of a large old tree in a small pot. To use them you must find the many variations each rule has inside it to bring the image of the tree out in your bonsai.
I don’t agree with how most of these rules are written The first rule on the list I linked to from Brent Waltson states. Height should be six times the caliper of the trunk. Whoever wrote that should be shot it leads people to believe that if you are doing something different you are “breaking the rules” I would think the rule or Design Principle would be better written Height of 6 times the caliper of the trunk is about the midway point of the usual ratios of height to trunk width which often range between 3-1 and 12-1. Then we could go on to explain how these different ratios affect the design of the tree and what will be challenging when going outside these ratios. I don’t see this as breaking or even bending the rules I believe this is what the rule really means. But to ignore this principle when designing a tree is not beneficial to the image of the tree or your imagination. It is like jumping out of a plane and trying to ignore the rules of physics.
Not all rules relate the same to a Bonsai as they do to full sized tree but the ratio rule is one that does as we discovered in the “Understanding Design Principles” thread.
I am not saying that you must sit down today and memorise all the rules but as you design your trees don’t ignore them as some believe but explore them think about what each rule means and why it is there whether it makes sense and find your own interpretation for each and every one as you progress your understanding.
So my acceptable area of agreement is anyone who takes the time to explore the rules and come up with their own interpretation of them. To follow them blindly or to pretend to ignore them sits out side that realm and I can’t see either as being better than the other.

Very well said Edward I like your thinking.

You are very much on the subject Jamie I will dig out a link to an article that I think you might like.

These articles from Emil Brannstrom and subsequent discussion is when I started believing that Rules are not broken or even bent
I think you might enjoy this Jamie
http://bonsaivaultforum.freeforums.org/ ... -1-t5.html

I am enjoying this it is. Making me think( which by the way hurts )so lets not get carried away. To keep our minds active we must exercise it.
We must also remember what we are about.
I believe Brett's avatar when it Say's Bonsai philosopher, he truly is and delving into this subject even further. It is making his tree's better and his mind clearer.

I remember when he first started posting. On another site full of question's, and enthusiasm. In some cases stubborn. He has matured in his Bonsai and I dare say in other area's.
I am now glad that I persevered with him and did not put him on my ignore list.
As now I feel I have a true Bonsai Buddy in Brett. We still have our difference of opinion's, like all friends, but we are both learning from each other.
As we are trying to help other's we must learn it is only natural. Pup

Bretts wrote:I find this far from rules Aus but taste you speak of.

Call them rules call them design principles the fact is that they work and should be studied not forgoten or ignored. Your Bonsai will only get better from the fact.

Its not a taste thing, its people who get too carried away, and dont let the tree or the tree's background speak.

Some very kind words Pup Thanks kindly. I didn't know the IBC had a ignore list But I am glad the Viagra has kicked in since those days and your not so grumpy
Seriously I am glad that I can call you a friend these days and I am humbled by your nice comments

It is very good to exercise the brain and you are right in the fact that you always learn when teaching. Even though I may sound like I am lecturing to people here it is also my journey of learning and testing my theories. I enjoy thinking like a Philosopher thinking up theories and then testing them. I am naturally inquisitive of things and try to not take them at face value

Whether this makes me a good at styling bonsai we will just have to wait and see

Asus101 wrote:

Bretts wrote:I find this far from rules Aus but taste you speak of.

Call them rules call them design principles the fact is that they work and should be studied not forgoten or ignored. Your Bonsai will only get better from the fact.

Its not a taste thing, its people who get too carried away, and dont let the tree or the tree's background speak.

I would continue to disagree Aus The amount of deadwood you have and other things like the stature of the tree and whether you want to work with what the tree has or to start again is all a matter of choice but the rules will help you accomplish whatever you choose
The rules are not about telling you what you must like but a way to get what you want.

Bretts wrote:Some very kind words Pup Thanks kindly. I didn't know the IBC had a ignore list But I am glad the Viagra has kicked in since those days and your not so grumpy
Seriously I am glad that I can call you a friend these days and I am humbled by your nice comments

Whether this makes me a good at styling bonsai we will just have to wait and see

One thing mate I do not need Viagra. I grow my own pain management and it works wonder's for our libido. What made me grumpy was the fuzz were always raiding my stock

Pup wrote:One thing mate I do not need Viagra. I grow my own pain management and it works wonder's for our libido. What made me grumpy was the fuzz were always raiding my stock

TMI!!

Japh wrote:

Pup wrote:One thing mate I do not need Viagra. I grow my own pain management and it works wonder's for our libido. What made me grumpy was the fuzz were always raiding my stock

TMI!!

Agreed! wow MASSIVE overshare!

lol i did not need to know pup!

Bretts wrote:

The rules are not about telling you what you must like but a way to get what you want.

My point is that, its not what you like,its whats naturally excepted.
Rules of the temperate forest state soft wood rots, yet we see a disregard for this and we see tree's typical of such a moist cooler environment with soft wood being given vast area's of dead wood forgetting the natural cycle that wood will go through.

There are other rules as well that you will find all artists follow be it consciously or not. You can call them what you want, be it rules, principles or guidelines, but without them you do not create a work pleasing to the eye.

Look at Golden triangle, depth perception, negative space, colour contrast...
look at why tree's are planted in the positions they are, why branches are placed where they are, why some parts of the tree are thicker than others and why other parts should not be thicker than the others, why height ratio is important and what makes those tree's outside that ratio work. Once you have gone through this look at those tree's that "break the rules" and find out the reason for them working and not working.

Root over gargoyle or tank is not natural but I am happy to except it into the world of bonsai. I have a fig with deadwood and I believe it is natural. It is going to be a challenge to style but I am not about to throw it out because it does not confirm to a rule of no deadwood on tropicals. The deadwood has been there for a number of years with no visible deterioration.
You may know that the Japanese did not allow deadwood on thier deciduous trees and that is now a common thing in western bonsai and possibly always was in Chinese bonsai. I do not believe these are constraints that will decide if a composition is a success or not. If the deadwood does not last for long then that is another aspect of bonsai that we deal with in any composition to some regard

There are other rules as well that you will find all artists follow be it consciously or not. You can call them what you want, be it rules, principles or guidelines, but without them you do not create a work pleasing to the eye.

Look at Golden triangle, depth perception, negative space, colour contrast...
look at why tree's are planted in the positions they are, why branches are placed where they are, why some parts of the tree are thicker than others and why other parts should not be thicker than the others, why height ratio is important and what makes those tree's outside that ratio work. Once you have gone through this look at those tree's that "break the rules" and find out the reason for them working and not working.

Yep that's what we been talking about

Bretts wrote:Root over gargoyle or tank is not natural but I am happy to except it into the world of bonsai.

That is artistic liberty then a disregard for the tree's natural growth pattern. Remember the reason for bonsai.
As for the other part, I havnt read most of the walls of text, I have a headache and homesick..

As for the other part, I havnt read most of the walls of text, I have a headache and homesick..

Sorry Pup but the ignorance is astounding