super thrive and similar products, dicussion and results

[Jamie]

I used Superthrive once and accidently spilled it all over myself and this was the result, I stopped using it after that

now thats freakin hilarious

[Bretts]

As many know I became interested in this subject a few years ago and was amazed at the stories that abounded about this stuff that was so easily questioned with a little research.
Superthrive does give it's active ingredients on it's 1 gallon label(would not know about the smaller bottles). They are Auxin and Vitamin B1, It also has what I understand to be a soil conditioner humic, organic concentrate or Bio as they say from memory. B1 has long been thought to be what was doing the magic until reports of experiments showed that it could not even be absorbed by the plants?
So it was condemned as snake oil. I don't know much about that but I was amazed in all the discussion Auxin was ignored as there is lots of evidence that Auxin can be of great use in transplant shock and the like just as many claimed happened when using super thrive.
Auxin is produced by the growing shoots of plants and it is a hormone that is sent down to the roots to tell them to grow among other things. Added Auxin can be absorbed by the plant and it can tell the roots to grow. But the added auxin will only have an influence if there is a shortage of auxin to start with. Some studies have shown that adding Auxin when it is not needed can also slow root production but these results have also shown a quick return to normal when the added auxin is removed.

Too much auxin can kill a tree in fact it can be used as a weed killer and that is why I would not recommend diluting rooting gel(wich is a more concentrated auxin) in place of such things as superthrive. (If it works for PUP then that is OK but I don't recommend that)

There are various products that can be used for adding auxin.
Superthrive is expensive but as far as I can tell the concentration may even make it the most economical.
Seasol also has the other hormones which may be very good but ZI haven't looked into that
Maxicrop plant starter is a Auxin only product.
Nurserymans Brand Plant starter is also only contains Auxin. Great at $10 a bottle but our local nursery doesn't stock anymore and I have never figured out who makes the stuff?
Auxinone is a new one to me mentioned by the Queensland guys. It also seems to only contain Auxin as the active ingredient.
I am using a product called stimulate at the moment which has every known snake oil ingredient known to man
It seems this Rainbow stuff may be great but from what I read it does not seem to contain Auxin.
The vegemite contains B1 I believe and although some have stated results with it it seems scientific evidence does not back this claim. I have considered that it possible it help microbes or something and so indirectly helping the tree? But Again I haven't looked into this.

The fact of the matter is that Adding Auxins in this manner could be very beneficial just as using rooting gels can be beneficial to cuttings(much the same thing). Often it makes little comparable difference(again such as with rooting gel) and also the possibility is there to cause damage(again just like rooting gel if too high a strenght is used).

It seems to me that Bonsai enthusiasts are the pioneers in this research now as there is little commercial use for auxin the way we want to use it, although it is used for many other things in the horticulture industry such as slowing fruit drop and extending the life of flowers, increasing the root depth on turf lawn oh and also slowing the growth of nursery plants to sell at the opportune moments in department stores.

[Jamie]

cheers for the write up brett! that does shine a little light on the subject. it seems that to much of a good thing can be bad, as it has been stated..
i am interested to se results of the superthrive i have got a little test subject going with it at the moment, it might not be a fair subject though being a fig i might try it with something a little bit harder to strike with.
anyone that has any ideas on what sort of tree to use as a test subject let me know as i will be quite happy to try it


jamie

[Bretts]

The best test I can imagine would be to take twenty 15 year old potted hornbeams give them all a good root and shoot prune. Soak half in water and half in Superthrive the superthrive bunch would continue to be treated with superthrive every week or so until good growth was evident.
Repeat this experiment with field grown trees. Then again with out of season transplant trees then again with sick trees then again with various exotics and natives natives. Then take all the information gathered and study it for any interesting theories that could be tested better and with varying strengths and time periods and we will be getting closer to working out how to best use this stuff
Give it a lifetime or two of study and we could probably fill a book the size of a propagating reference guide showing different applications for different species for specific situations. Just as rooting gel is not used on willow I doubt superthrive would be much use for them either.

[Hawaiian77]

I used Superthrive once and accidently spilled it all over myself and this was the result, I stopped using it after that

Howzit Guys,

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Now that's "NUTS" Pup, "You Da Man"!!

-Tim

[Nereus]

is anyone using this one their natives?
im a bit scared to

[Jamie]

is anyone using this one their natives?
im a bit scared to

hi mate, i have used it on casuarina that have been collected and also some QLD small leaf figs. i cant see it hurtin them, would check with one of the more native experts though!

[JayP]

Whazzup Jamie,

I know this much for a fact....when I re-pot my my trees and soak it in Super-T I haven't lost one yet. But then, that being said it could be the "Kiss of Death"!!!!!!

-Tim

I completely agree with this and your earlier post mate, when i was working at Bonsai Nursery Brisbane we used it almost daily and we it for propagation (with a very high strike rate), to repotting old and sick trees (with excellent results) and used it when root pruning and potting thousands of bonsai for the wholesale market, for example we would take a root bound juniper in a 6 inch pot drastically root prune it and pot it into a bonsai pot about 4x3 inches and soak them just as hawaiian77 described earlier and sit them straight in the sun in the middle of summer, we did this with hundreds and without exagerration would have lost maybe 2% at worst!

So personally i think it is excellent and i have seen the results with my own eyes, however i would also like to suggest that it be used specifically for the purposes mentioned above and should not be used as a regular fertiliser as i have actually seen it cause growth deformities particularly in the leaves, that being said i'm sure a few follow up applications wouldn't hurt after major repotting etc. i hope this helps

[Bretts]

That's Interesting about long term use Jay. Not sure if I mentioned it much in my above post but I think I did.
As much as I am sure this stuff can help I was never sure it was a good thing to continue using it for no reason. I stopped using any of these hormone type soil conditioners seasol included in general fertilizer routine when I became unsure but have been starting to use them again in general (Seasol anyway which is much the same thing except it has a more broader active ingredient list) Mainly by peer pressure but I have also heard some recent scientific opinions that recent test have shown there can be benefits from ongoing use.
But yes definitely worth using for transplant shock among other things!

[Jake]

hahaha wtf how does that much hair even happen?

[63pmp]

i have actually seen it cause growth deformities particularly in the leaves

This is all a bit nerdish, and will probably just go over every ones head, but;

Auxins applied to roots have been shown to stimulate ethylene production in the roots. Ethylene is a powerful plant hormone, it is normally produced in roots during waterlogging, one of its effects is to cause epinasty (google it) in plant leaves. There is some suggestion that if a root is already producing ethylene then adding auxin to it magnifies the amount of ethylene produced.

I can see that using superthrive, or seasol, on a long term weekly basis could cause leave deformity. No one has done any research on long term repeated application of auxins, all research I have viewed has been one shot doses, or agar plate tests. There is also a concentration factor that must be reached. For instance one author found that NAA had to be added at a rate of 5ppm to have an effect, where as a 10 ppm application stopped plant growth. NAA is about 50x more potent than IAA, IAA is in seasol. The rates at which seasol is used makes me think that it is not strong enough to stimulate lateral root production.

Paul

[senseijames]

[quote="Bretts"]

Too much auxin can kill a tree in fact it can be used as a weed killer and that is why I would not recommend diluting rooting gel(wich is a more concentrated auxin) in place of such things as superthrive. (If it works for PUP then that is OK but I don't recommend that)

Hey, reading this part of Bretts post, has just sparked my memory from the past, Many years ago, I remember a nurseryman I knew used to use Roundup as a rooting hormone, I do not know what the mixing rate was, but I do remember that it used to work, it must not have been very much or you would think that it would poison the plants ( he used to use it on seedlings also ) or cuttings, maybe because Roundup is a hormone, would be good to find out if someone has the mixing rate ???

[63pmp]

Round up is not a hormonal herbicide: MCPA, 24-D, agent orange, type herbicides are hormonal. These are synthetic auxins which have a much greater potency than the natural plant hormone. You can dilute MCPA and use it as a rooting hormone for cuttings, but why? When the proper stuff that works is so cheap.

Too much natural auxin will also kill a tree. That's the point. Why do you want to muck around with the extremely complicated and delicately balanced hormonal system of a plant when it is not necessary? Its like me given you testosterone to make your hair grow. It will give you testicular cancer, but so what, you've now got facial hair.

[Bretts]

That's interesting James I never heard of that before. Although it is not a hormone it does effect the amino acid flow in Plants. There is something about high levels of amino acids activating a repress-or protein and roundup stops the flow of these amino acids or something so in effect a small amount could un-repress a plant?
Also I found this

Glyphosate binds with and inactivates EPSPS, the critical enzyme in the shikimate pathway required for the synthesis of aromatic plant metabolites including essential amino acids phenylalanine, tryptophan and tyrosine, as well as downstream products such as plant growth promoter, indoylacetic acid and plant defence compounds, phytoalexins [4].

This sounds like it is doing the opposite of creating roots but it does show that it is interacting with the root growing hormone so it is definitely possible.

Paul
There are still ongoing studies into the affects of seaweed concentrates and most importantly they are going from the laboratory to the field and back to the laboratory. I posted about an interview with one of the leading scientists in this field here
viewtopic.php?f=103&t=5196&p

Too much natural auxin will also kill a tree. That's the point. Why do you want to muck around with the extremely complicated and delicately balanced hormonal system of a plant when it is not necessary? Its like me given you testosterone to make your hair grow. It will give you testicular cancer, but so what, you've now got facial hair.

To much auxin (rooting hormone) will also kill a cutting but that does not stop us using it. Over the years through experimentation people have found the strengths that work best for what species in what circumstance and it has benefited gardeners everywhere.
As far as doses and concentration of auxins in seasol and other auxin type tonics, I like to trust in the scientist that have developed these things and rely on the application rates they give at least as my starting point.
So looking at my plant starter Auxin concentrate made to stimulate root growth on transplanted ornamental trees. It does have about 10 times the concentration in Auxin of seasol. But seasol also recommends about 5 to 11 times the concentration when mixing for large and or stessed trees. 100-200ml per 9L Compared with 2ml per litre for my plant starter.
So again when you drop down to the normal 25ml per 9L that most people would use it in their usual fertiliser routine it starts to make alot of sense of being beneficial as there are many other things in seasol that can benefit a plant.
Like I stated before I tend to use the plant starter concentrate when repotting and the seasol in general use so this makes alot of sense in this regard.
One important factor to consider is that there is a great possibility that adding auxin will help a tree recover when stressed such as when transplanting by regenerating roots faster. If for some reason your application is a little high or the tree would actually do better without added auxin the tree quickly returns to normal once the application of Auxin ceases.
So my Philosophy when experimenting with Auxin is that a couple of high root regenerating doses at the time of transplant is well worth a try and even as good as a bet each way. But also just like when doing cuttings if you do not know what dose will give best results you might even be better of using none.

I have never seen anything about high levels of Ethylene causing mutations only genetic mutations that cause high levels of Ethylene wich in turn create trees like they are on a constant dose of auxin. Very strong drought resistant roots with a dwarfed tree.
There are now man made versions of this!
In any event If there is such mutation I would think it does not happen at the low regular dosage level recomended by seasol and superthrive.

[63pmp]

Brett,

Some clarification on your previous post.

“Glyphosate binds with and inactivates EPSPS, the critical enzyme in the shikimate pathway required for the synthesis of aromatic plant metabolites including essential amino acids phenylalanine, tryptophan and tyrosine, as well as downstream products such as plant growth promoter, indoylacetic acid and plant defence compounds, phytoalexins [4]. “

This explains why plants die when sprayed with glyphosate, not why it is possible for growing roots.

“I have never seen anything about high levels of Ethylene causing mutations only genetic mutations that cause high levels of Ethylene wich in turn create trees like they are on a constant dose of auxin.”

Then you are researching in the wrong places and don’t know what you are talking about. Start looking at the following link; then start looking at: exogenous auxin root ethylene

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl ... =&as_vis=0

Even if you just google “ethelyne production root waterlogging”, you will get tonnes of information.

I’m not sure where you get the term “mutation” from, I’ve never used it. Interesting that jayp has seen leaf damage due to over use of superthrive, guess that don’t mean much to you either.

"There is something about high levels of amino acids activating a repress-or protein and roundup stops the flow of these amino acids or something so in effect a small amount could un-repress a plant?"

This makes no sense, it pretty much proves that you have no understanding of plant physiology or what you have quoted from an internet website.

"As far as doses and concentration of auxins in seasol and other auxin type tonics, I like to trust in the scientist that have developed these things and rely on the application rates they give at least as my starting point."

It’s marketing spin like pomegranate and acia juice, there is no basis for the claims that antioxidants will do anything. Why would you trust their scientist and not independent university employed scientists? Like as if the ones paid by Seasol aren’t biased. Why is it you don’t trust scientists generally, but you trust theirs? That makes no sense either. It’s like believing the tobacco industry research that smoking is harmless, rather than independent medical research, it’s insane.

"To much auxin (rooting hormone) will also kill a cutting but that does not stop us using it."


There is a difference between a stick with leaves and a plant with a functioning root system. This only proves how cautious applications have to be.

"So looking at my plant starter Auxin concentrate made to stimulate root growth on transplanted ornamental trees. It does have about 10 times the concentration in Auxin of seasol. But seasol also recommends about 5 to 11 times the concentration when mixing for large and or stessed trees. 100-200ml per 9L Compared with 2ml per litre for my plant starter.
So again when you drop down to the normal 25ml per 9L that most people would use it in their usual fertiliser routine it starts to make alot of sense of being beneficial as there are many other things in seasol that can benefit a plant.
Like I stated before I tend to use the plant starter concentrate when repotting and the seasol in general use so this makes alot of sense in this regard. "


I don’t understand any of this. But I’m curious to know what other things in seasol are beneficial to plants when they already have a functioning hormonal system.?

"One important factor to consider is that there is a great possibility that adding auxin will help a tree recover when stressed such as when transplanting by regenerating roots faster"

Adding auxin doesn’t regenerate roots faster. It causes an ethylene reaction in the root similar to hypoxia/anoxia, that stimulates the root to shoot higher up. If anything, I would think this stresses a plant more. The plant will do its own thing because the hormones are already in the tree, they don’t need anymore. The point is, do you really need seasol? And nothing you have said justifies the expense. Yes it has been shown that auxins can stimulate root development, but it has also been shown to be specific, dependent upon growing conditions and dangerous, my point is that a single dose doesn’t do anything. These are the same arguments put to you by other people and points you continue to ignore. If you could explain your doses and maths more clearly it might help to understand where you are coming from, but I don’t see that seasol has enough auxin in it to do anything at 25ml/9L. And if you use it regularly, like in a feeding program, then you a likely to poison your tree.Why bother?

I tried to listen to Don, but I only lasted a few minutes and for some reason couldn’t jump forward to the interview. If you post the name of the scientist he interviewed I’ll look for his research papers. As for Don, he’s an agricultural trained media celebrity, he is paid by the people whose products he pushes. He has financial motivation to support gardening industry products, and he has been wrong many times before. I don’t think he is all that reputable.

Paul