AusBonsai

dayne wrote:adopt a bonsai kid today

Adopt me!



I must say I've found this thread incredibly enlightening. Admittedly, I've never thought (or heard) much about trunk ratios. I just kinda figured the aim was to make the trunk as thick (and old) as you could while still adhering somewhat to how it appears in nature. It's definitely food for thought. Something I'll keep stored away as I continue to try to take in as much information as I can.

The more I hear and talk to people about natives, especially in person, the more this notion of duty comes up. That we own it to the world of bonsai to do great things with our natives, to step up to the world stage. I got into bonsai because I loved the look of it and wanted to be able to do it for myself. I have a special place for natives and have dreamt of trying all sorts of things with them. Now the more I talk to people it feels like there's this pressure. I never dreamed of showing trees, nor of ever being that good. Perhaps that will change over time, but I can't imagine producing anything anyone else will give two you-know-what's about.

Salvatore quoted John Naka when he mentioned the height ratio to trunk thickness at 6: 1.

That was always a goal, wish, possibility, etc.and obviously doesn't apply to all or even most trees now.

2:1 or 3:1 or even 4:1 is now the new goal etc or fashion in Bonsai.

My fat trunk root wrap Black pine was created with that goal in mind but we certainly would not apply it to most trees.

Remember there are no Bonsai Police.

I got a lot from Salvatore and the weekend. I hope everyone else did as well.

Grant

Grant,

Are you sure there is no Bonsai Police?

I think Fashion is a big issue here. Large trees are out of fashion in Japan at the moment with stout little shohin the rage. The astute practitioner in Japan is snapping up the larger trees that no one wants at the moment expecting it to come full circle and they become popular again like yesteryear.
The sumo style became all the rage with people trying to go fatter and shorter until people started to point out that some where quite grotesc and unrealistic.
We can look at pictures of 1:4 and under and find great bonsai but that does little to show that the pictures of 1:6 and higher are no good. They look dam fine and I can pick out most of those trees coming from some of the most respected international bonsai stars of today! Some are old pictures and look even better today!

Like I said if Salvatore was to tell me the bonsai had to be between 1:2 and 1:4 I would have to show him the amazing trees out of this range and ask him what he thought of them. Not to prove the guy wrong but to me that is an obvious question to ask and I would be very interested in his reply! Hell I remember analysing great bonsai that are under 1:2. Yet I can still appreciate the delicate bonsai of one Japanese Masters daughter that goes way beyond the 1:12 ratio. (name escapes me)

I gave up on fashion once I got a chance to look back on the eighties I have never really been one to chase popularity either so as long as I know I am aiming for great trees I would not be too upset if others thought they where not in fashion. Yet a great tree should be hard to ignore I tend to like most music and as with Bonsai I have no preference for any type of Bonsai Small Large stubby or tall. I want at least one of each

I did not make the convetion, but this discussion is interesting to say the least

When I look at all the photos that Ant posted, Most seem to be about 6:1 excepts for the Sumo figs. ( I did not measure tham all tho)
Funny thing is that they are only one I do not like !

The Japanese have Guidelines to say 6:1 - 12:1 Height to girth, and I can only assume that they came up with these numbers over a long time of experimentation and have done so 'cos they look nice and balanced.

When I see photos of trees that are "Sumo" Style, I find they look to me like a broken stump that has grown a new top. Like when a tree is too overpotted, they feel just too bum heavy and not balanced. I can appreciate them, but do not like them myself.

My 2 bobs worth
Ken

PeterH wrote:Grant,

Are you sure there is no Bonsai Police?

YES, oh no! Here they come now. EE OR EE OR.

NBPCA wrote:

PeterH wrote:Grant,

Are you sure there is no Bonsai Police?

YES, oh no! Here they come now. EE OR EE OR.

"Excuse me sir, may I see your License and Root forks thanks"....

"Was there any reason for attacking that plant so visciously?"....

"Woah, woah, woah, you got papers for this extra tine?"
"I'm gunna have to give you a canary mate, till you get it back to stock"

kcpoole wrote:I did not make the convetion, but this discussion is interesting to say the least

When I look at all the photos that Ant posted, Most seem to be about 6:1 excepts for the Sumo figs. ( I did not measure tham all tho)
Funny thing is that they are only one I do not like !

The Japanese have Guidelines to say 6:1 - 12:1 Height to girth, and I can only assume that they came up with these numbers over a long time of experimentation and have done so 'cos they look nice and balanced.

When I see photos of trees that are "Sumo" Style, I find they look to me like a broken stump that has grown a new top. Like when a tree is too overpotted, they feel just too bum heavy and not balanced. I can appreciate them, but do not like them myself.

My 2 bobs worth
Ken

Na mate most are 4:1 maybe a few are subjective depending where you like to measure. Sumo??? maybe its me but i dont put those in sumo ville. thanks man its all good feed back and thought...

PeterH wrote:Grant,

Are you sure there is no Bonsai Police?

Thank god no! Otherwise there'd be an awful lot of us locked up.

NBPCA wrote:Salvatore quoted John Naka when he mentioned the height ratio to trunk thickness at 6: 1.

That was always a goal, wish, possibility, etc.and obviously doesn't apply to all or even most trees now.

2:1 or 3:1 or even 4:1 is now the new goal etc or fashion in Bonsai.

My fat trunk root wrap Black pine was created with that goal in mind but we certainly would not apply it to most trees.

Remember there are no Bonsai Police.

I got a lot from Salvatore and the weekend. I hope everyone else did as well.

Grant

Sorry Grant is that the root wrap or ratio we shouldn't apply to most trees ??? Glad to hear you enjoyed Salv!

craigw60 wrote:I just want to respond to Dayne. I am currently running beginner classes for the yarra valley club with 13 people in the class ranging from 12 to late 60s at a guess.
Its so hard to deal with such a mixed age group my reaction is to want to direct the lessons to the younger people as the time frames involved in growing good bonsai are reasonably long. I have been trying to convince the older folk that its possible to grow good shohin within a 5-7 year period but its an uphill battle. If they don't pay attention then I know they are going to end up with twigs in pots and my time is wasted. Very frustrating.
With regards to the growing of good stock I believe its starting to happen now and in the next 5-10 years we will see some very nicely grown bonsai material starting to emerge. I am 50 and I am still starting plenty of new trees that I will never see reach maturity thats how the world goes.
Craig

Hey Craig this is life. Love listening to you talk bonsai!

anttal63 wrote:

NBPCA wrote:Salvatore quoted John Naka when he mentioned the height ratio to trunk thickness at 6: 1.

That was always a goal, wish, possibility, etc.and obviously doesn't apply to all or even most trees now.

2:1 or 3:1 or even 4:1 is now the new goal etc or fashion in Bonsai.

My fat trunk root wrap Black pine was created with that goal in mind but we certainly would not apply it to most trees.

Remember there are no Bonsai Police.

I got a lot from Salvatore and the weekend. I hope everyone else did as well.

Grant

Sorry Grant is that the root wrap or ratio we shouldn't apply to most trees ??? Glad to hear you enjoyed Salv!

I did; it is good to see how others work and their point of view.

There is one 60 year old tree I am looking at very closely in my collection which may lose another 80% of its foliage this weekend.

Grant

Go Grant Go Grant Go Grant!!! Cant wait to see I will be chopping, chucking and selling 80% of my trees!!!

How about I cut off all the foliage except the lowest right hand branch cluster, jin the remaining, flip the top branchlet on the portion left over the top and compact the remaining.

Grant

60 yrs of emotional baggage gone. Good rittens. Finally this material has been paid due respect. We need you to set these examples. My hat off to you sir Grant!!! Thats what im talkn about !!!