AusBonsai

Thats intresting Kc thanks. I sure do like the reduction at the top. I am not so sure about the pigeon breast . Maybe if the planting angle was changed as Dog sugests it would work better.

Looks like you where reading my mind dog. I have more to the story of where I was heading with that angle but not sure it matters now I am liking this old/new angle and shorter top

MelaQuin wrote:I am not sure a smaller pot is needed but a straighter sided pot would suit this masculine base better than the soft lines of the more feminine pot it is in. The pot size does look a bit large but once the branches lengthen and thicken and it has foliage it will carry the size...but the style of pot could be improved I feel.

I think it was Mojo that said the pot was a bit large and I agree. The plan was that this would be a good training pot for the next ten years of branch development and not really the final pot. I seem to have a thing against rectangular pots for this type of tree (deciduous) at the moment but maybe that will change in the future?
Plenty of time to consider the final pot
Oh I think the virt above is a very good job and I don't mind that pot either but I think he has the tree too far to the left.

if this were my tree...

i would air layer at about the half way point of the middle section of the tree and regrow from a new leader in the ground, why? the middle section i beleive is 1) to long and too straight. 2) it exagerates the straight lines of the overall trunk. coming from the base it comes near vertical out of the ground straight, then goes of the the left diagonally straight and long, then top seciton is/was once again straight and long. if it were airlayered at the half wat point the top section would make a nice smaller tree, more masculine yes, but you could maniuplate the straight sections by the fact they would be shorter, and you could change the planting angle with the top to have it coming out of the ground at an angle not vertical.

the bottom section would then have to be ground grown to grow the new leader, this could be done with a bit of though to stop it from thickening the base to much by clever pruning. i would change the planting angle and regrow the tree to have a smoother flow and not as straight.

all that said it depends what you want from the tree. if your happy with it no probs. i beleive there are also other options that will work well, Ken's for one if it would be feasable to get enough wood out of the heart wood area and then get the 25 degrees needed to get that straight middle section flowing better is a little risky i would beleive.

just my thoughts

O geez, here we go again! "A" hornbeam.... "My" hornbeam..... WHICH darned hornbeam??? There's a big difference between the various species!!
I guess it's the European hornbeam (Carpinus betulus, to be precise), judging by the strong growth it shows. So the leaves are fairly big and somewhat coarse. This should influence our ideas about the ideal size for this tree. Darn it, there's more than fat compact silhouettes to bonsai!!
The planting angle in the virtuals above is much better than the one shown in the first photo. I agree the tree is too far to the left of the pot, though.
And could we please have photos without strong shadows??

Lisa

Here ya go Lisa here is one in leaf. Many people prefer this carved out back side as the front Carpinus betulus is correct although the leaves can be quite large they also reduce well as can be seen on this tree of Walter Pall's Since we are looking at this tree what do you think of the stright section on it

The straight section stands out alot more in the winter shot. The foliage disguises it well in the leafed version. Its kinda the same with your back view.

I like the straight section on Walters tree
Maybe because the Apex is directly above the Base?

Now with a hornbeam silhouette I think it can look fine out of leaf as well but I am not that good with virts

I like that one Brett
Nvery nice with the leaves as you do not see the trunk at all

Only problem will be viewing it when Nekked.. Who was it who said that all deciduous trees should only be seen diring winter when the trunk and Ramification can be appreciated?

Ken

Bloody hard crowd this one
I am sure it will look great naked I guess I will have to get the naked virt right.

hi lisa, at take it your response was aimed at me.

i never said to have a short squat tree persay, i said the top would layer nicely to create a smaller tree, and i would grow the base out taller again with a more flowing line, maybe i wasnt clear enough.

i can appreciate all trees are different and you may have also noticed i havent been part of any of the ratio threads nor the others accompanying it. what i stated is what i would do if the tree were mine.....

hi Brett, once you get a dense canopy of twigs your tree will be fine, that will take a long time with a hornbeam. I think to shorten the crown of your tree is really no big deal its only a couple of years to replace that. The main problem as I and others have pointed out is in the centre section. I am sure if Walter Pall could have found a way to correct that part of his tree he would have. But he couldn't so he has built a superb tree around it, as should you. We all have to live with imperfection. With regards to the pot this is something which is so easily changed it hardly needs to be mentioned. In 10 years you will have a fine bonsai complete with some faults.
Craig

That is the thing with deciduous trees do you want them for there winter silhouette, or the spring growth?. As you can see by what has been shown here. They are two distinct tree.
Same shape yes but like me I am much better looking with my clothes on,( just ask Mrs Pup, and she loves me ). Also as Brett has expressed, he has a love affair with Hornbeam hoping for the beautiful colour of Autumn.

So what is the solution as Brett has asked front and back present two different trees also. A slight angle change will also change the appearance.
In some cases it will also eliminate the bit that annoys a lot of viewers.

This needs to be looked at from all angles and sides a very good case for 360. The reasons are, that once it has been cut off you cannot put it back,
( which is probably why the newbies as they dubb themselves are reluctant to do it because they do not yet posses the vision for the future), so when do we make the choice?, by analysis of all that has been put forward.
Then find the one that Brett feels HE can work with. this last sentence is aimed not just at Brett, but a lot of the members here that get a lot of opinions, some time to the point of confusion.
I have noticed this a lot at club levels. A lot of the experts give their opinions, not knowing whether the person sitting is capable of carrying
Them out, ie wiring and the like.

Sorry Brett just thought I would like to say that for the benefit of the noobs as they say. Cheers Pup
edit spelling error

Well I missed the chance to vote, ah well...

My views of this tree..... I would not be chopping the top back, if you want to shorten the tree I would look at airlayering just below the first bend. Achieving a reduction in height & also allowing a chance to change the way it comes straight up & out of the ground. Then allow the top section above the big chop to grow freely for a while to help thicken & blend it in. As it stands at present the difference in size does not tell a convincing story.

JM2C

Matt

craigw60 wrote:hi Brett, once you get a dense canopy of twigs your tree will be fine, that will take a long time with a hornbeam. I think to shorten the crown of your tree is really no big deal its only a couple of years to replace that. The main problem as I and others have pointed out is in the centre section. I am sure if Walter Pall could have found a way to correct that part of his tree he would have. But he couldn't so he has built a superb tree around it, as should you. We all have to live with imperfection. With regards to the pot this is something which is so easily changed it hardly needs to be mentioned. In 10 years you will have a fine bonsai complete with some faults.
Craig

Taking the top section of is not a big deal no, it is quite simple, but the difference it makes I think is a big deal. To me the tree would be to tall without it removed. Maybe it was too much of a trick question but as it was so simple I am surprised so few suggested it!
The art of Bonsai is turning faults into features or hiding them. This can be harder with deciduous as they can't be hidden behind foliage all year. I don't think the middle section of my tree will be a problem in the plan I have but that is just my opinion.
If it works I would not call it a fault just as I would not call the straight section in Walters tree a fault!

Anyway here is the best naked virt I can do. Used the same tree as I did when in leaf.