Diatomite or Kitty Litter???

[kcpoole]

if you can get diatomite, actual diatomite i recommend it over the others. cant say on akadama or kanuma either, havent used it, but dont think i will be interested if it collapses and gets gluggy.

I have tried Akadama nd Kanuma both, and although they do break down athey take at least 2 years to do so so ne fear in using them.

My thoughts are they the Japanese use these soils because that is what they have locally available and only in the last 50 years( or less) have foreign materials become available. They have been growing trees in it for 100's of years and are happy to continue doing so.
If they had Diatomite in Japan thne I am sure they woud be using it as well, and possibly even in preference to Akadama.

I have tried Our local D, and both Akadama and Kanuma, and will not bother with akadama any more as it is not worth it when I beieve a Better medium available locally and cheaper

Kanuma I am still keen on only as the Azaleas in it are doing extremely well. I have yet to Confirm the performance of Azaleas in Diatomite is the same or better. I have Azalea Cuttings in Diatomite doing real well so they look promising. I will know in 2 years and that is when all my Azaleas will need potting again

Ken

[Jamie]

hi brett,

i cant remember the brand i will see if i have an old package of it somewhere re. the BBQ absorber, will get pics of it too. like i said, i dont think it was what it stated it was (zeolite) but it did hold its structure even though it was fine, what i did notice was that it would bind together and when i dug around it, it come out in chunks.

gday ken,

like you said it comes down to avaialbility, diatomite isnt as such readily available to me where i can go down the street and get it, but i can if i head up to bundy about an hour and a half away when i visit friends, or if i am down on the coast on holiday im not big on azalea either so kanuma isnt of to much interest to me either.

The thing i like about diatomite is that i can reuse it, 2,3 maybe even 4 times and it will still hold its structure and ability to absorb and release water and nutrients

jamie

[kcpoole]

Just checking on Enfield Produce for Mitchell here, and found they have a new website and will deliver too Yay:D

Cost to buy and delive 1 bag to sydney and surrounds is 20 + $16 shipping, but they do discounts for more items too
they also ship to Statewide and National too so anyone now should be able to get some delivered

http://www.petandgarden.com.au/browse/d ... dID=128065

Great Place and great people too so no excuses now Brett

Ken

[kcpoole]

hi brett,
The thing i like about diatomite is that i can reuse it, 2,3 maybe even 4 times and it will still hold its structure and ability to absorb and release water and nutrients

jamie

Yeah this is one of the kickers for me too

I have already repotted up 4 times with my original purchase and still as good as the day i first potted up with it
Add an extra handful each time for each pot and it will cost bugger all to repot all trees in a year

Makes me happy

Be real interesting when grants results come out

Hey Bretts is right too with KL.. If it works for you then good, but when changing mixes for ANY trees, do a test first and make sure it will perform like you think it shoud and monitor them over time

The only issue I see is that with manufactured products like KittyL and BBQ Absorber is that they can cahnge the contents and recipes at any time and you may not notice till its too late.

At least with single product like Diatomite or Zeolite you know what you are going to get

Ken

[Glenda]

Hi Glenda,
You say the constant rain breaks this stuff down. I and other have it soaking in water for months and it not break down so I don't think the constant wetness would be the issue. Rian pelting down on it beating it to a pulp I guess is possible but then the same would happen with Akadama
I just don't believe any of this about mediums only working in certain climates anymore. I hear alot of it but have never seen any actual evidence. What I have seen is alot of people using a medium in a climate that other people said it will not work in. how many times have I heard people say Akadama only works in the Japanese climate it is too hot here . This and also it just does not make any sense. I see first hand people growing in heavy compacted clay like soil and there is other proof out there it works well.

After seeing Kanh Linh do his Penjing setting at BBTH last weekend where he used his muck mix soil (see posts re) I was lucky enough to visit Phillipe Tot's Lignan Penjing Academy where he had some very fine examples of his penjing on display in the classroom. As with Linh he uses clay based soil mix which becomes very hard and not at all porus like the mixes I use for my bonsai. He also relies on this mix to supply the nutrients for the duration of the cycle before the next repot - which can also be a lot longer -about five years and only using a little simple liquid fertiliser not of commercial origin as this may contain preservatives that he feels may harm the microorganisms of the soil. The miosture retention of this set-up appears also to work in a different way to the usual bonsai mix. The clay base absorbs a great deal of water and sits on a container without holes so it is thoroughly wet at the start and he says this takes quite a long time to become dry even on very hot days and does so in uneven stratas.

There is always a different path to explore
Ric

We have people saying that 100% diatomite drys out too quick in hot climates. Well I am in hotter than thiers and anytime a medium is drying out too quick you just water it more or if that is too much trouble just add more spag moss.

Lets make it clear though I never said that Chandlers was better than Diatomite I never even said it was as good. I said I have used it as a 1/3 mix and it worked exceptionally well over a 1-3 year period.
Most of the people that have said it does not work any time we discuss it have never explained how they used it. (100% or as a mix) and are vague on any other details. They continually make broad statements that kitty litters in general are only good for pissing on but ignore the fact that the one they recommend is also used as a kitty litter and oil soak er and all of the above.


Hey Jamie
There are several brands of BBQ under tray used to soak up oil the one I had said it was diatomite It looked like diatomite and it broke down as soon as water touched it. I guess yours was a different brand. The diatomite we know is high fired.
People all over the world swear by Akadama and it is a well known fact it breaks down over a few years. So many things can be going on with a tree to cause an issue and jumping to the most obvious is not always the right choice.
I have found some very interesting things about Chandlers and why it has worked so well for me.

Hi Bretts,

When I used the Chandlers attapulgite I used it at 100% just the same as the diatomite. After 3 months of wet weather, the attapulgite would squish in your fingers, and when repotting I found a layer of sludge in the bottom of the pot. This does not happen with the diatomite. I also found attapulgite clumped together as soon as it was wet, where the diatomite doesn't.

These are files that were sent to me by Maidenwill to explain exactly what diatomite is and how you can use it.

Maidenwellfaq.docx

maidenwellmsds.docx

MDAAllSizes.doc

mwpfs.docx

so anyone interested can get the facts for themselves.

Glenda

[Gareth]

from this information it states the pH of the product is 5.7.

previous information i have read says it is a pH of neutral (7).

But it also says it is suitable for most plants, and from reports of people using it long term it seems that it is.

But for acid loving plants like azaleas, could this be fine also, as some people said they wont use it and prefer to use akadama or kanuma for this (cant remember which one) because it is more acidic/

I suppose it depends what you mix with it and what ferts you use, but has anyone tried this with azaleas?

gareth

[Grant Bowie]

hi brett,
The thing i like about diatomite is that i can reuse it, 2,3 maybe even 4 times and it will still hold its structure and ability to absorb and release water and nutrients

jamie

Yeah this is one of the kickers for me too

I have already repotted up 4 times with my original purchase and still as good as the day i first potted up with it
Add an extra handful each time for each pot and it will cost bugger all to repot all trees in a year

Makes me happy

Be real interesting when grants results come out

Ken

Hi Ken,

Maidenwell Diatomite is now one of the few products I don't have yet. I ordered it from Sage Horticultural but he has had a run on the product! Go figure. Any how I will be preparing tomorrow for the tests to start as soon as I get the final product.

Grant

[Jamie]

gareth,

just because azalea like an acidic soil it doesnt mean that they wont grow in a neutral soil. with a ph of 5.7 from the info that is toward the acidic end of the scale anyways

jamie

[Gareth]

I figured that, good information to know.

Anyone know then why it was stated before that diatomite was neutral but now it is 5.7?


cant remember where i read it but i think it was somewhere on here

[Jamie]

i always thought it was neutral aswell,to me a ph level of 6.5-7.5 is about neutral.

no idea why the link stated it was 5.7 though. the easiest way is to get a ph test kit and give it a bash, i dont think they are that much, i would use the ph kit from my aquarium but dont know if it is the same???

[Gareth]

hi jamie,

i actually work for an Aquaculture and aquarium supply company (aquasonic) and as far as i know they are not the same chemical, the indicator that is, however an easy way to tell is to look at the ingredient on the bottle in a nursery, if it is bromothyl blue, then depending on the pH test kit you have, it might work.

However, different pH ranges require different chemicals gto act as indicators, and depending on salinity ranges, it will also need different indicators.

Then you have the question of how much to use, generally in water (aqeuous solution) the directions are formulated for the amount of water in the test tube, but im not sure about testing a solid like soil.

might be better to get an electornic pH tester with a spear probe and calibrate it with buffer solution to target the range between 4 and 7, would be the safest bet i think, but reatil value, for a good quality one, your looking at about $300, for something to test pH, unless you doing alot of testing is out of reach for msot people.

[Gareth]

repost, bloody dodgey internet, deleted.

[Bretts]

hi brett,
The thing i like about diatomite is that i can reuse it, 2,3 maybe even 4 times and it will still hold its structure and ability to absorb and release water and nutrients

jamie

Yeah this is one of the kickers for me too

I have already repotted up 4 times with my original purchase and still as good as the day i first potted up with it
Add an extra handful each time for each pot and it will cost bugger all to repot all trees in a year

Makes me happy

Be real interesting when grants results come out

Hey Bretts is right too with KL.. If it works for you then good, but when changing mixes for ANY trees, do a test first and make sure it will perform like you think it shoud and monitor them over time

The only issue I see is that with manufactured products like KittyL and BBQ Absorber is that they can cahnge the contents and recipes at any time and you may not notice till its too late.

At least with single product like Diatomite or Zeolite you know what you are going to get

Ken

I am too stingy to pay the shipping I still want them for $8 a bag I couldn't believe it last year when all the stocks ran dry Grants comment brang back bad memories there better be some for me this season. Don't spose you could drop a couple of bags of at Stevens for me so I can have it shipped down with the Akadama
You know I won't disagree that diatomite is a better medium. As I said I stopped buying it when I found better but thought I would come back and see what all the fuss was about. Glad I did I have learnt heaps.

Hi Bretts,

When I used the Chandlers attapulgite I used it at 100% just the same as the diatomite. After 3 months of wet weather, the attapulgite would squish in your fingers, and when repotting I found a layer of sludge in the bottom of the pot. This does not happen with the diatomite. I also found attapulgite clumped together as soon as it was wet, where the diatomite doesn't.


Glenda

I would not recommend using it at 100% Glenda. As I stated I was using this as with all my mediums as a combined mix and only last year have I started experimenting with them at 100%. I will be using Chandlers at 100% myself but mainly just to keep exploring the attributes that I have discovered. After some time the chandlers will be able to be squished with your fingers when wet but this is the same you will find with even hard Akadama. There are strict rules when repotting with Akadama that once it is wet you should not push on the soil otherwise it will collapse. I take some care not to do this with my trees potted in Akadama and treat the 100% chandlers the same.
Yet left to it's own devises even at 100% I have found no clumping and the structure is holding fine.
Chandlers is great if you can find nothing else as a part mix. It may have some specialty use as 100% but I am still exploring this.

[kcpoole]

Hey Brett Can get as many bags as yo like mate
Just PM me when getting close and I will grab some as a I need some more myself before I dig some more trees and need to repot the rest of my trees into it

Need any Zeolite from Ray while I am at it?

Just checking on the Mt Sylvia website and they reckon that Kleensorb has a PH of 8.75.
Quite acidic ( what is Kanuma? ) My azaleas I have in it at the moment think that it is fine
http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/dia ... s/purasil/

Ken

[Taffy]

PH 8.5 - acidic??? The soil in our garden is PH 4.5 - now THAT'S acidic!!