Air layering a Trident Maple

[legoman_iac]

Quick update: just re-potted my better looking of the two air layers and found a massive increase in roots. See image below of a side by side comparison (photos scaled to approx same size) to just a few months ago, to this weekend. I'm no expert but think I'm doing OK?



Hoping to see some leaves soon!!!

[Ben Thomas]

How cool! Well done!

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Ray M]

Quick update: just re-potted my better looking of the two air layers and found a massive increase in roots. See image below of a side by side comparison (photos scaled to approx same size) to just a few months ago, to this weekend. I'm no expert but think I'm doing OK?

Hoping to see some leaves soon!!!

Well done mate. That tree should grow very well.

Regards Ray

[legoman_iac]

Thanks Ben and Ray!

Thinking I should trim back the branches. Will post a full pic of the "tree" shortly for some advice and feedback.

- Daniel

[legoman_iac]

Heya all,

Pics below of both my air layers ... wanting advice on whether I should trim back any branches, if so, how much ... OR let it go through until next year's re-pot season before trimming?

The first 'small' maple had very minor roots, infact only one or two. The second, 'large' maple is the one with many roots, as just previously posted, so I imagine the large one could cope with a heavy haircut? Or is it the other way around?

1- "Small" Maple:





2- "Large" Maple:





Thanks for following along,
Daniel

P.S Note the mother tree in the background, keeping an eye over them both

[legoman_iac]

Was chatting to Ray who thinks these should do well and said to take about a third off and (with permission to post back on this thread) said "If you want larger trunks you need to let them go after cutting the third off. Feed them with Seasol at least a couple of times a week. Once you see lots of new growth feed them with liquid fertilizer. I use Powerfeed and Charlie Carp. I alternate between the two. One feed Charlie Carp, the next feed Powerfeed. Once you can see that they have really taken off put some Seamungus on the soil."

Wasn't sure if more could go as they're both quite large. Is size irrelevant? "If you want to remove a bit more that should be okay. The main reason for doing this is so the roots don't have quite so much to feed. Once the root system gets established you can work on whatever size you need. As I mentioned to you, if you want a large trunk, allowing the tree to grow will help build a larger trunk"

So seasol every few days. Just a couple of times a week will be sufficient Then when fertilizing how often? Once a week? Then until end of spring? "Once every couple of weeks is fine. You can certainly do this until the end of Spring. You may also find that you will continue this into summer using the Seamungus."

Pics below with proposed trimming option. I've cleaned them up as I think the background was a bit confusing/distracting, then show "one third off" and a much heavier cut, which I'll do one the roots are established ... ie, next spring/re-pot.


(larger version of above image: http://sketchdigital.com.au/photos/bons ... ptions.jpg


(larger version of above image: http://sketchdigital.com.au/photos/bons ... ptions.jpg

- Daniel

P.S Thanks for the constant advice Ray!

[legoman_iac]

For those following along, gave the two the chop on the weekend, as below:

Large one (with massive root system):


Small one (with minimal roots, my favourite of the two I think):


Now fingers crossed and hoping/waiting to see some leaves!!!

- Daniel

[shibui]

Cutting trees back after root pruning

The main reason for doing this is so the roots don't have quite so much to feed.

is the traditional method. I have used it for years and it does work however, over the last 10 years or so there is much more interest in an alternative approach and theory. Many are now leaving much more on the tree after root pruning and finding that growth is at least as good and often better. The theory here is that increased leaf feeds the roots better so they grow quicker. Something to think about and to try maybe?

In bonsai there is another reason for pruning - to create taper and trunk movement. I think your trees will need to be cut back much further at some stage if you hope to have better bonsai.
Definitely leave them for now so the roots recover but if they do well over spring I'd think about cutting really low later in summer or next winter to get some taper and start to get some movement into those trunks.

[Akhi]

Shibui,
Would you chop this spring or wait until the trunk thickens to a desired thickness and then chop? Somewhere I read that a meter of growth adds like a centimeter of trunk or something along those lines. Keen to know as I am growing my maple seedlings and letting them free rein to do whatever they want to do in this their second year.

[JaseH]

Trunk thickness shouldn't be your only goal, taper is just as important.

With stock that size you are playing the long game regardless so you need to choose how your going to spend that time. IMO if you let it grow so it thickens quickly, then cut back hard you spend all that time trying to heal large ugly scars which may never fully heal. Or you can cut back hard and often and sacrifice some speed thickening the trunk but have much more control over movement and convincing taper without the large scars.

One thing that I noticed in Japan was their deciduous trees rarely had large ugly scars from trunk chops - they played the patient long game and the results were there to see. Too often here I see deciduous trees that are basically a cut stump with branches grown on, not convincing for me at all.

I'd eventually be cutting back to the first or second node on these guys like Shibui suggested - maybe not right now just after separating the layers(although you probably safely could) - but definitely next winter. Then rinse and repeat

[shibui]

Great response Jase. A very thick telephone pole trunk cut down may be thick but will be straight and have a large scar that takes time to heal.
I've found that it is better to have lots of trunks that add up to the bulk of a single large trunk. That way you will still get the trunk thickness but will have several smaller scars to deal with after pruning. Extra trunks also gives you more options when pruning for trunk movement. To get several trunks growing you simple cut low in the first year to stimulate some buds low down - maybe sacrifice some thickening to get a far better outcome in the end?

Also with Jase on this

One thing that I noticed in Japan was their deciduous trees rarely had large ugly scars from trunk chops - they played the patient long game and the results were there to see.

The very best bonsai are developed slowly over many years but few of us are patient enough to do that.

[/Would you chop this spring or wait until the trunk thickens to a desired thickness and then chop?quote] In this situation - newly separated layer - I would allow the new roots to grow a bit first then cut back hard, possibly some time in summer but that depends how it grows. If this was a tree with plenty of established roots I'd do the low cut soon after it leafs out. The earlier I can cut, the sooner I'll get the multiple trunks I want to grow good taper and movement see above.

[legoman_iac]

Thanks for the comments, glad this thread is helping others too.

Question for shibui (big thanks for your input), were you able to view my previous photoshopped mock ups? Mainly how I'm thinking/planning to cut the trees back eventually? See the third of each image's "Lots off" variation? Might need to click on the links.

Think I will wait, add you mention for the roots to recover. Maybe let it grow a year or two then get to work on the taper?

- Daniel

[shibui]

I looked at those Daniel. I would certainly go for the 'lots off ' options.
In the second I'd cut even lower. It has plenty of buds that should shoot but if you cut high there is a chance that only the upper ones will shoot.
I can't see buds on the upper one so to be safe the 'lots off' option you have illustrated would be prudent until you see where it buds back.

Do you happen to know if this is a standard trident or a Taiwan maple? It has the very stiff, long shoot look of Taiwan to me. My standard tridents tend to branch out much more than that but it could just relate to how this one was grown.

[legoman_iac]

Oooo ... good question. Tree was here when we moved in so don't know what species. Quick search of Taiwan Trident and think you're right! Thanks for asking!

[legoman_iac]

SIGNS OF LIFE!!!!

Just went out to say 'morning' to my bonsai and the biggest one has signs of life, as below:







This waiting game of knowing whether they'll both come in to leaf is driving me crazy, at least one down one to go!

Though I suspect as the smaller one had very minimal roots I shouldn't expect too much?

- Daniel S