AusBonsai

Jow wrote:

treeman wrote:

Jow wrote:Great and interesting thread.

I'm not really a fan of either tree in their current shapes. (But let's face it I'd kill to have them both)

No 1 has a boring lower trunk, and poorly placed branches. It looks like a European styling and has a somewhat clinical restricted feel to it. It would be a good candidate for an air layer, root graft or kimura's root shortening to make a powerful twisty little tree. The foliage masses don't really add much dynamism to it.

No 2 looks like it's been let go. And the recent pic of it the foliage is more uniform but it has lost the dynamic movement it had.

I think the happy medium is somewhere between the two approaches of manicured and totally un-tamed.

I also think that to get there you first need a structured neat wiring job that can be grown out somewhat into more free looking clouds vs manicured pads.

The below tree is by shinji Suzuki who toes this line really well in modern Japanese bonsai.

Thoughts?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1455090730.390634.jpg

But that prize winning twin trunk needle juniper of his is (or was) really awful in my opinion. Looked like it belonged in a manicured Japanese garden rather than a wild mountain side. Not a single needle out of place! A good example of styling to win the prize (which he did)

I don't think that it was styling to win a prize so much. More likely: a crazily famous historic tree, the right owners name attached to it and the right year for prizes to be awarded to certain people.

Have a look through most kokufu albums. The first few pages are usually the prize winning trees and while many are manicured many are also not and are more in keeping with the above juniper.

But yes Suzuki and most other Japanese growers have a mix of styles of trees. I guess they have to appeal to a wide customer base.

Don't forget that the twin trunk juniper is also a rigida, which are near impossible to wire unless you want to have bandages all over your hands. Most other rigida I've seen are also styled in a similar style for this exact reason. So I think he can be forgiven for the very manicured design.

To expand about winning prizes, there are other things apart from what Jow listed that determine prize winners. I don't really want to say exactly what (some insider information I was told), for fear of changing opinions of shows (I'll never tell )

Also definitely agree with what Jow said about Suzuki's style being that happy medium between the two. I've seen some very famous Japanese trees that look like this (tree 2) due to neglect rather than thoughtful styling. Good example is at the Omiya Bonsai Museum, where most of their trees don't seem to get any sort of regular styling. Shinji Suzuki on the other hand is very masterful in "artificially" (by human hands) creating this sense of the natural. If you haven't seen the documentary where Shinji Suzuki styles a white pine for Safuku-ten (the professional's show), definitely try and find a copy. It's incredibly enlightening as to how the mind of a true artist works.

And after seeing the Noelanders Trophy recently, have to agree that Tree 1 is very European. I can only think of one Japanese artist who styles like this, but around 6 Europeans (mainly from Spain and Italy).

Mojo Moyogi wrote:Is the Goyo you like here?

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/09/09/shi ... ai-garden/

Cheers,
Mojo

No not there Mojo.

evan wrote:

Most other rigida I've seen are also styled in a similar style for this exact reason. So I think he can be forgiven for the very manicured design.

Nah, I can forgive him but not for that reason. It's just a trend.
These were styed prior to 1989. Once again, these look like towering wild trees to me. The Suzuki tree looks like it belongs in a French or English 17th century topiary garden. Stripped of it's dignity and made into a grotesque poodle.

wow, that 3rd one is fascinating.

all 3 of these examples are far better than the original natural style you posted. I would have voted for any of these over the 2 original trees. The middle one in particular is unreal( oops I mean real).

Squizz

all 3 of these examples are far better than the original natural style you posted. I would have voted for any of these over the 2 original trees. The middle one in particular is unreal( oops I mean real).

Squizz

treeman wrote:

evan wrote: Nah, I can forgive him but not for that reason. It's just a trend.
These were styed prior to 1989. Once again, these look like towering wild trees to me. The Suzuki tree looks like it belongs in a French or English 17th century topiary garden. Stripped of it's dignity and made into a grotesque poodle.

I think a grotesque poodle perfectly describes that tree. Especially after seeing those other examples of his early stuff. Let's just hope the trend comes full circle in future and we get back to that more natural style.

squizzy wrote:all 3 of these examples are far better than the original natural style you posted. I would have voted for any of these over the 2 original trees. The middle one in particular is unreal( oops I mean real).

Squizz

Oh absolutely. They are far better. I just wanted to see folks compare those two procumbens that I happened upon.

evan wrote:

To expand about winning prizes, there are other things apart from what Jow listed that determine prize winners

.

Like an all expenses paid trip to vegas with the show girls thrown in?

No 1.
Love the refined shape and the colours.

treeman wrote:

evan wrote:

To expand about winning prizes, there are other things apart from what Jow listed that determine prize winners

.

Like an all expenses paid trip to vegas with the show girls thrown in?

That's not far from it

Andrew E wrote:Are these the same tree? Isn't this the tree Kobyashi re-styled? I remember seeing a YouTube vid on it. Tree no.1 is the before and no.2 the after he worked on it. Kobyashi said he shaped it that way as he doesn't have to impress anymore and styles trees more naturally. I could be wrong. I prefer the first version as it's more refined but the wild characteristics of tree no.2 are appealing.
Andrew

hi andrew
i think this is the video you referred to
https://youtu.be/Fuatyg4bc84

and i remember mr Kobayashi mentioned one time that as he got older, he now enjoys and appreciates Bunjin styled trees more.


regards

The pictures just go to show that like any art form change over time is inevitable - think music, painting, clothing etc. Photos from the 1970's and earlier tend to be more natural. Then along came Kimmura in the 1980's and it seemed that every evergreen bonsai in the world (especially junipers) suddenly needed deadwood and if a little looked good then a lot looked a even better - well that was the theory. Then came the manicured/topiary style tree as shown at the start of this post and now we have gone full circle by realizing that the natural look of 40 odd years ago is a real good look. Fact is that all styles have their good and not so good points.
Mike thanks for the reminder