Bonsai at the Extreme of their Natural Range

[NBPCA]

Larix Laricina American larch. Apparently. Misho Seeds Purchased in 2006

Thats interesting.

I have seen a Larch in the wild in Canada at great altitude near the snow line, but after reading Wikipedia, Larix Laricina is more of a bog/swamp coloniser, so I am not sure what variety I saw.

Not too many bogs or swamps in Parkes I imagine; so you have done well.

Grant

[Bretts]

Grant you and Don Talk of altitude alot when considering climate hardiness of trees.
I would like to get a better understanding of this. Maybe this could be a good place for you to explain this technique.

[NBPCA]

Grant you and Don Talk of altitude alot when considering climate hardiness of trees.
I would like to get a better understanding of this. Maybe this could be a good place for you to explain this technique.

Hi Brett,

Just saying that the Larch you have named comes from flat and boggy areas; whereas the Larch I saw in the Rockies was at altitude and growing on the sides of hills with little apparent soil, so probably not the same plant.

But good point,; although I wouldn't call it a technique, just one oif the many things to take into consideration when you are assessing plants to grow in your area or why certain plants aren't doing well in your area.

The higher you go the colder it gets; even at the equator.

And the sun gets harsher as there is less atmosphere to filter the sun.

So therefore if there was a 3,000 mtr mountain near Hay NSW they could probably grow Junipers; whereas we know Don can't grow Junipers at Hay.

Boudi Sulistyo can't grow Junipers in Jakarta but he has a weekender in the mountains and he can grow Junipers there. Altitude makes all the difference in this situation.

Another observation was a plant I saw in Cradle Mountain National Park at 1,000 mtrs, it looked just like a thousand year old shimpaku. I saw the same plant in Canberra at the ANBG and it was barely reconizeable as the same plant. It was a lot less compact (lanky) slightly different color and texture and looked like it was doing OK but not exactly loving it. And it did not look like a desirable plant for Bonsai compared to how it looked in the wild in its own climate.

I am sure lots of other people can come up with examples, including more scientific analysis of the effect of altitude as well; yourself included.

Grant

[Bretts]

Ok so the higher you go the colder it gets but the sun is stronger. How would this affect a deciduous tree then. A higher elevation is colder which may be better but the sun is stronger and will burn the tree.
I have looked around at the Elevation maps online. It seems we are 900-1000m above sea level around the Central West NSW. So that means our Sun is weak and we are hot.
Finding the climate for a tree can be tricky how do you work out what elevation is beneficial.

Hornbeam and Larch are cold climate trees but will they have a different beneficial elevation?

I think that Juniper go really well here and I would have thought it was the same for Don with all the sun he gets. He has told me they don't go well there so I am just trying to understand.
I am glad you said it is Just one of the things you must consider as that was part of what I was wondering. If a juniper likes the strong sun from high elevation does more days of sun make up for lack of strength? I guess I am trying to understand if elevation is another box to tick or whether it can be also make up something for lack of something else in the climate
There are alot of questions there so I hope I am not overworking you.
Thanks!

[anttal63]

I have been growing jwp, scottspine, japanese larch and atlantic cedar successfully for about 4 yrs now. All of them love water!!! I also use white pebble as a mulch on the soil surface, reflection of light and deflection of heat. they are all yet to see a bonsai pot except the cedar and its been no problem. In a summer in high altitude the most significant factor i would have considered is the nights are always cooler/colder, not necessarily the days??? I guess if averaged out then yes the days too.

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Brett,

I am not a scientist but observation would show that each type of tree seems to vary in their reaction to changes in Latitude, Altitude, closeness to coast or distance from coast, wind, humidity, cloud cover etc. This can shorten their life in some circustances when grown in different climates.

For instance I have read that Lebanese Cedars can live for 1,000 years or more in their natural climate, yet in a lush and relatively soft climate like England they fall over after 400 years. Sort of like life on steroids maybe.

Nothofagus gunnii starts growing naturally at about 1,100 mtr and peters out at around 1,400mtr.There are obviously factors that suit this tree in that location. Precisely which I don't know . Same goes for all other deciduous trees. Some have evolved to grow in very specific climates whilst others seem to do OK in most places. Taxodium distichum for instance.

I didn't say the sun was stronger as you go higher(in terms of heat), I said harsher(I meant in terms of less filtration) by atmosphere and therefore the trees protect themselves in different ways; smaller leaves, needles, thicker leaves, epidermis etc and natural selection would favour these traits plus growing low to ground etc.

Grant

[Bretts]

Ok I think I get what you mean. As much as I am going to anyway.
Finding the elevation is bloody annoying for a geographically challenged person like me as the maps don't have towns marked.
Just tried to find the elevation of Melbourne to compare Antonio's climate and gave up after reading Yahoo answers
Thanks for your help Grant it is something I will build on.

[anttal63]

IM not high up at all these days gone straight

Now the higher the altitude, the thinner the air / lack of oxygen.

[Grant Bowie]

Hi all,

The Canberra Bonsai Society was given a talk on Pines by Mick Balzary on Saturday morning. He is a well known and respected grower of bonsai pines for many years, especially Japanese red and black pines.

He lives on the south coast and recently during the tremendous amount of rain he had two 40 year old Scots pine die in a period of about 12 days. Stone dead.

I meant to ask him if he would persist with Scots pine in his climate or is it just one of those years that would kill Scots in his coastal environment.

Would a totally inert potting mix have helped do you think? His potting mix was about 50% blue metal, diatomite and zeolite.

Discuss.

Grant

[Jamie]

that sounds like a good mix for a pine grant it should of been quite free draining. but if he is adamant that it was due to poor draianage i would beg to differ some i would say it is more the zeolite that wasnt drying out, it has high moisture retention, whihc could of possibly caused the problem, most likely a root rot fungi, they can hit hard and fast and before you know it boom, the tree is gone. i would be removing the zeolite from the mix, bluemetal and diatomite would be fine as a medium for pine i reckon.

jamie

[anttal63]

South coast where???

[Bretts]

Hi Jamie
I understand that zeolite holds about half as much water as diatomite.

I could be wrong but I think Grant is saying 50% of the mix is made up of the three listed ingredients and the other 50% I guess must be organic?

Grant
Would a totally inert potting mix have helped do you think? His potting mix was about 50% blue metal, diatomite and zeolite.

Hi Grant I find it hard to believe that just rain would kill a healthy tree. Considering watering for holidays and such I go by the advice that a tree can die in one day(hours) from no water but it takes about 2 weeks to weaken a tree from over watering.
Maybe there is more to the story in that the humidity of the season weakend them and the rain finished them off? Otherwise I would say get them out of the rain

I do think a more inert potting mix would help in heavy rain periods.

[Jamie]

its not so much that zeolite only holds have as much as its weight in water it is how long it retains it for. it holds it for a very long time, upwards of 4 days longer than diatomite, diatomite has the ability to release water and moisture easily where zeolite has the ability to lock the moisture and nutrient in to its honycomb structure.

[NBPCA]

Ant - he is around Bega' ish kinda area. I wouldnt want to be too specific on the forum here without asking him personally.

Cheers,
Leigh.

[Bretts]

Hi Jamie
Sounds interesting. I would have thought that the zeolite could not have the moisture locked away from the tree. Otherwise the zeolite would never release the water to the tree. CEC's are fairly complicated maybe there is something I am missing here but my understanding is that once the medium is holding it's maximum that only the tree using the water or evaporation reduces the water content. You seem to be suggesting that a tree planted in zeolite although zeolite holds less water the water will last the tree longer?
My understanding is that a porous substance like zeolite and diatomite holds it quota of water and then that is then reduced over time by the tree or evaporation. How does zeolite hold it's less water away from the tree to stay wet longer?