AusBonsai

Pat K wrote:Excellent comp and congrats to all the participants....I think you're all winners!!!
And thankyou Steven for thinking my pots good enough as prizes in such company....I'm looking forward to getting your instructions Pup...lots of detail please

Cheers, Pat

Helloooo Pat now that is what I like to hear. So here we go 40cm long 20cm wide 7cm deep a nice ochre colour with a motive of Ularu. Its gotta grow.

Seriously I would like a motive of Ularu ( Aryes Rock ) on it and an ochre colour, as this pot is for a native. Size wise 10cm long oval 4cm deep. If you have any Ideas I would love to here or see them.

Cheers a very happy puppy

Pup wrote:...Cheers a very happy puppy

Cheers, Ron

Dear all conctributors to this post.
Firstly, I'm very happy that this competition has been such a positive experience for so many of you. It has been fantastic for me to see such a variety of species and such a high quality of achievement. So much has been achieved in the use of Australian species as bonsai in the past decade or so. I'm not one who searches out for competitons, but neither do I shy away.

I made notes on virtually every tree in the competition. This was firstly so that I had some written reference as to what I felt about a tree (strengths and weaknesses from my looking), so that where necessary I could refer back to the notes to see if I still felt that, or had shifted ground as I worked through the large number of entries and might need to reconsider so as to maintain a semblance of continuity in assessment. I didn't keep a time sheet, but there was somewhere between 6 and 8 hours of work to judge the full set, with many more than the final 9 needing considerable thought and study before being able to rank them in winners order - such were the challenges of high and similar quality of trees on display.

The second reason for making the notes was so that they might be made available to entrants, because there is useful feedback as some have indicated. I am a strong believer in active education and learning. The competition need not be a black box with entrants wondering what went on, as long as people respect the process and outcome of the judging process. I'm aware of the dangers in going down such a path, because some will not be able to resist saying 'you got it wrong and should reconsider'. While I'd be happy to explore ideas coming from the notes, for me, the competition as such is closed. I survive and thrive because of ideas: their discovery, their growth, their understanding. As colleagues and friends know, I will robustly explore them, but I seldom will fight over them.

I mentioned to Steven that I would be happy to make the notes available. I will pursue this with him and we will see what seems best for the forum.

Much good has come from this competition, and next year's should be even better.

Cheers
Roger

I must say I am thrilled to even get a mention, being a newcomer. When i entered in category 3, it was a hurried entry because there were no other entries in that category at the time. Being new, I did not know the presentation of the photograph was crucial (silly me ).

After viewing the entries in this and the other categories, I now have a better understanding of what is expected in these competitions.I have learned from this experience, and appreciate Ausbonsai forum for the opportunity to learn.

Glenda

I must say I am thrilled to even get a mention, being a newcomer. When i entered in category 3, it was a hurried entry because there were no other entries in that category at the time. Being new, I did not know the presentation of the photograph was crucial (silly me ).

After viewing the entries in this and the other categories, I now have a better understanding of what is expected in these competitions.I have learned from this experience, and appreciate Ausbonsai forum for the opportunity to learn.

Glenda

Awesome Glenda, and that is the reason why these comps are so good

To encourage our Newbies ( not a derogatory term at all) to put their work out there and learn is one of the main reasons this site exists I am sure.
It is one of the reasons I am here
To learn from others and encourage every one to "have a Go"

ken

Shannon wrote:Thank you for all the efforts of people involved .........BUT...... The standard of SOME of the winners tree's uuuummmmmmmmm.......... I am finding it hard to comprehend how they were judged?????? Was it on actual BONSAI styling merit, did you just pick the winners out of a hat or was the prize's allocated for mates????
I am very disappointed and embarrassed at the standard of SOME of the winning tree's......

kcpoole wrote:I read the negative comment to be a rant on the quality of the entries in the cat 2 and 3 sections and not the Category 1 awardees' trees myself.
Did the poster put a tree in himself? if not why?

The lack of justification of the comment has left it ambiguous in the extreme. I am still trying to figure out what it actually meant and if the poster woudl like to elaborate then we would all be much the wiser

Ken

To answer the comments you made about my negative comments:

I believe that it was a great idea to run a completion like this and I do commend Steven on all his hard work and all the other people involved it must have been difficult to judge off photo's.
I would like to take the opportunity to explain my some what short comments, this was not a direct attack on any one person ie: Pup, as some of you have stated.
I just find it very disappointing and embarrassing when we run a completion like this that the world can see a some of the tree's that have won can't even be classed as Bonsai.

Before you ask what does this guy know....I have studied Bonsai for over 20 years and entered a number of completions AABC to Local, I offer is my own critique of some of the tree's PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENCE this is JMO.

Category 1- 2nd prize- The natural weeping foliage covers a substantial amount of the tree and find it very hard to determine a trunk line or structure and is well over potted in comparison to the diameter of the trunk.

Category 2- 1st prize- Very sparse foliage and primary branch seems to take over the tree.

Category 2- 3rd prize- Sorry I struggle with this tree, style? Sparse, poor taper and.....it seems to not even be potted in a bonsai pot, by the photo.

To answer Kens question: Did the poster put a tree in himself? if not why?

In fact several Ken I entered in 1 in Cat 1 and 3 tree's in Cat 2 and no I have not got sour grapes about not getting a prize, you should never enter any competition expecting to win anything........

Shannon wrote:..................

Category 2- 1st prize- Very sparse foliage and primary branch seems to take over the tree.

Category 2- 3rd prize- Sorry I struggle with this tree, style? Sparse, poor taper and.....it seems to not even be potted in a bonsai pot, by the photo.

........

Forgive me, I am a newbie, but wasn't category 2 for trees in training LESS than 12 months? From what I have learned on this forum, that would mean a bonsai pot could not be expected, nor a 'finished' tree. JMHO

Glenda, Category 3 seems to be able to supply bonsai pots and they're beginners to bonsai...... Other wise we could have entered a branch that you cut off a native tree in the park.

Shannon, just wanted to say thanks for elaborating. I can appreciate that post much more than your initial one. I find your points interesting and can see merits in what you're saying, however I am too new to bonsai to have a worthwhile opinion on the matter.

Being a wannabee myself - maybe in 100 years I will have the capability of some here, I reckon this competition was fantastic.

Congratulations to all entrants and to all winners

Australian bonsai has benefited.

As far as I am concerned, the judges did a great job and they shouldnt and musnt be challenged....poor form.

I look forward to entering next year and hope that this is but the start of many many competitions to come.......

My only complaint is that I didnt have a tree worthy of entering - maybe next year

Again, congratulations to all entrants

Regards
Steve

sreeve wrote:Being a wannabee myself - maybe in 100 years I will have the capability of some here, I reckon this competition was fantastic.

Congratulations to all entrants and to all winners

Australian bonsai has benefited.

As far as I am concerned, the judges did a great job and they shouldnt and musnt be challenged....poor form.

I look forward to entering next year and hope that this is but the start of many many competitions to come.......

My only complaint is that I didnt have a tree worthy of entering - maybe next year

Again, congratulations to all entrants

Regards
Steve

Well said, Steve

Glenda

Shannon are they just your observations of what was on offer as Bonsai for judgement as Bonsai. BY who's criteria. You say you have studied Bonsai for twenty years.

How many Australian native Bonsai completion ( competition ) have you entered. Going on the Japanese standard of Kokufu your magnificent Ficus would not have made the cut.
Ariel roots crossing roots branches of equal thickness.

So what standard do you expect, a cutting of four months has all the attributes of how the tree grows naturally. When I entered this competition I expected to get some thing. I must admit first was a surprise to me.
I accept it with pride the competition was of high standard and there were some trees that were iffy. To say that the Judges favoured there mates, you could not have got it more wrong.

I think that, is where it was wrong of you to make that assumption.I think you might realise that, now I did not see your comments directed only at me ( which you have since said they were not ) I saw them directed at the owner of this site and the Judges.
We as a group are here to promote Australian Bonsai designers and Australian Flora as suitable for Bonsai. This is one way of doing it if you look at some of the shows from around the world there are those. That absolutly blow your mind. Then there are the Small clubs where the people are trying very hard to emulate, the big boys.
I have had Comments from what some people will say are Exsperts in Bonsai, of my Bonsai that make me very proud. But then they look at another tree and tell me that needs a lot of work.
Which brings me back to earth. It is nice to win yes but it is even better to lose gracefully. I know this should probably have been a PM but I thought that this might stop the constant harping on the matter,and let it die.

Here's hoping Pup

Hi shannon
Thank you for expanding on what you had in mind with your earlier comments. I can now see where you are coming from and can appreciate why you feel as you do. I see nothing wrong with you feeling that way, though I don't see 'bonsai' in the same way as you, and that is OK too.

What you say about some of these trees as not even being 'bonsai' is a view that some others also believe. Where it has been explained to me before it goes something like bonsai are those trees where the traditional, Japanese styling of tightly controlled canopies, well exposed trunks with certain characterisitics of nebari and taper as well as branch lines that don't cross etc. are all evident. Within this system there are exceptions, for example to the 'rule' of no reverse taper, those trees with strong expressions of corky bark in ridges are 'allowed' to have reverse taper. For me this revelation indicated that there was both life and practicality in this that allowed for individual characteristics of trees to be included in the 'bonsai'. This is also covered in those, Japanese masters included, who say that trees should not be forced into what they are not - so shaping a Melaleuca or casuarina to look like a black pine, isn't exactly following the rules, if you get my drift.

Eventually, I moved to understand that there were no 'rules' and that the guidelines were a great set of 'rules of thumb' about what generally works. However, when it comes to a specific tree, appreciation of the 'art' is not achieved by running down a checklist of 'rules' to see how closely the work fits the model. Rather it is about looking at the composition as a whole and asking oneself if it is pleasing to look at. Then, why is it so (either pleasing or not pleasing). Then one can look to see whether there are apparent technical 'faults' and whether these make any difference to the enjoyment of the composition as a whole. Sometimes one feels that correcting them would make an improvement to what one sees (not just because it would no longer 'break the rule'), but at other times one realises that it is a case of 'not good, not bad, just different'.

Some people put forward the idea that you must thoroughly know the rules before you can break them. That is true up to a point, but it is not absolute. It also demands that viewers be prepared to accept trees that clearly break the rules. What rule guides you when you see a rule broken and whether you should accept the result or not? It can be used as a means of controlling other peoples creativity; or as a way of avoiding confronting the gnarly issue of 'what is the art?' in this composition. Craft is important to good bonsai, but it is not a substitue for creativity. Many people have distinguished bonsai from other 'potted plants' on the basis that bonsai are artistically styled miniature trees. To the extent that this is true, then it leaves open a very wide door about what is art. That also means that there will be trees that will both offend and excite different poeple. When that happens, then we know that something new may be coming onto the bonsai 'art' scene. Only time will tell if the change has currency or simply vanishes as an interesting but transient creation.

I re-checked my notes on your fig. I liked it. I quibbled about some small and some medium aspects. The tree is undoubtedly great to look at. I hope you keep up your good work as well as your contributions to this forum. Differences of opinion are good as long as we 'play the ball and not the person'.

Roger

Pup wrote: So here we go 40cm long 20cm wide 7cm deep a nice ochre colour with a motive of Ularu. Its gotta grow.

Heh heh....certainly going to grow in there Pup....you're not afraid of it getting lost?????

Cheers, Pat