Trident Maple - burned deformed leaves

[Bretts]

Your a freak Aus
I just remembered what it was that Ray thinks it is.
Thrips
I think he has hit the nail on the head.
He is a bloody legend of the hip with out even seeing the tree
There does not seem to be alot of information about them on the internet but
See here
http://www.common-garden-pests.com/comm ... hrips.html
And here.
http://pestcontrol.about.com/od/control ... BeGone.htm
They suggest pyrethrins which I do have and the neem they suggest I would say is the same as my eco-neem that Ray said was fine.
It seems that when the predator bugs get going it whips them out a bit so maybe that is why growth has returned to normal after a bad bout?
So now Ray said the neem was fine but agreed that a dose of confidor could be better. I guess Confidor kills the predators as well where neem does not. Does pest oil kill the predators like lady bugs?
I have heaps of little fly's breeding in my compost and worm farm could this be them?

[Bretts]

Here we go Ugly little buggers.
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nurspest/thrips.htm
I think I better manage my compost a bit better
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7429.html
Seems like keeping up with the Eco-neem is the best option.
Confidor might be an over kill and cause more problems?

[Jonden]

I will be interested to find out what this problem is, as I also have one Trident with the same thing.
Others I have are OK and all have been treated the same including Osmacote. So maybe the salt thing is the problem.
jonden

[Bretts]

Look at the pictures of thrip damage and read the description of when it happens. It seems pretty obvious to me.

[Bretts]

Well looks like I might get to eat my words again
I was just talking to Kym James http://www.aabcltd.org/downloads/profil ... 0James.pdf
She was telling me that she just lost a few trees to a suspected viral infection in various species and when I stated the issue I was having she believes it is the same thing As soon as I mentioned leaf curl. I have found similar symptoms on tallow oak and hawthorn. It would be the year I start using pesticide that I get this crap happen
Conversation was cut short at that time but I will be seeing her this weekend at the Cowra Festival so I will take some samples with me.
Apparently lime sulfur in Winter and they are chasing something called Back rot that might help cure as well. I did do one treatment of lime sulfur so duno?
Still haven't heard from the guys that had issues last year???
Expect a PM Mr Fly

[Bretts]

I have a new plan today. I have a almost full grown trident that hangs over part of my bench from a neighbor's yard. Although it has only started to leaf out I have found leaves that are curled although do not seem to be detrimentally effected as my bonsai are. I am pretty sure with the wind we have been having it is a major cause of the continual infection. It is right next to the fence and apart from the distortion of the fence I believe the roots have made it to our fiberglass pool. I have discussed it with the neighbor before and it was a simple matter to get an agreement to remove the tree. So I am about to get out there with a hand saw and remove all the branches. I have also moved affected trees to the shade house out of the wind that is obviously carrying the problem as all trees in there out of the wind are not affected. I will also defoliate and treat with lime sulfur or something.
Now the dilemma at the moment is there is an opportunity to collect the 400mm diameter trident trunk But I don't think it will be possible due to space restriction and the mess it will make I am not very happy that I am going to have to watch this tree be poisoned.
I will get some pictures as I remove the branches maybe some one has a good idea. Should have seen the look on the niebours face when I said I would like to keep the stump.

[teejay]

This is definately the same issue I'm having, Daviet's pictures are certainly the same malady. I have it on a Japanese Maple also, but not all maples have it.

A virus sounds far fetched to me, why would we all have the same virus on our Tridents (and one of my palmatums) when we live so far apart?

Those pictures of thrip damage look very similar.

[teejay]

I also have a neglected compost right next to my trees...

[buddaboy]

Just an idea, but could the thrips be spread through wind action? I get thrips on my figs sometimes when I buy nursery stock and I have to cut the affected leaves out and dispose in the bin to reduce infection spreading.

BB

[Bretts]

Well guys sorry to confuse you all but it seems we have another diagnosis. I planned on asking Matt Ouwinga what he thought it was on an online workshop as he almost exclusively grows tridents. Just before this I was told that there was a new diagnosis of a fungal disease and Yates Bravo was recommended. This has the active ingredient of Chlorothalonil which is only available in commercial/ farm quantities in Australia. Although Yates Bravo Fungicide is available in NZ.

Matt gave the same diagnosis of fungal and said he had seen it many times. I did not get a name of the fungus though as time was limited. Matt stated he used a systemic fungicide of a brand called Ortho in America. I chased this down to find the active ingredient and came up with two possibles that he meant.
One was Chlorothalonil (Ortho Daconil 2787, Bonide Fungonil, Maxide Multi-Purpose Fungicide) which is the same active ingredient as the Yates Bravo but it was not systemic as Matt stated he used.

The other is Triforine (Ortho Orthenex, Ortho Rose Pride Funginex) it is a systemic fungicide and is available from Yates as a rose fungicide.
I have this at the moment but am a little concerned on how to use it. Matt stated to use it as a drench defoliating the tree and poor it over the tree(from a watering can) and soil at the recommended dilution. Now I have the bottle it states to use it as a foliar spray and that it is safe on all roses?
I have never used fungicide before let alone a systemic any suggestions?

It states best used in humid conditions and as it has been raining but seems to be cleared up I might test it on one today as a foliar spray.

[Bretts]

A little more research and I found this

Transport of the systemic fungicide cela W 524 (triforine) in barley plants. II. Uptake and metabolism
V. V. Bruchhausen, M. Stiasni
C. H. Boehringer Sohn, Wissenschaftliche Abteilung Biochemie, 6507 Ingelheim a. Rhein, West Germany

Part I: Pestic. Sci. 1971, 2, 219.

Abstract
After soil drench application of triforine (5 mg) to 35 barley plants in pots, a maximum of 7.5 g a.i./g shoots (fresh weight) was found on the second day. The biological (effective) half-life was 9 to 10 days. Doses of 50 mg resulted in impaired absorption rather than increased foliar concentration.
On day 8 piperazine comprised 20% of the radioactivity of the four metabolites found in the shoots. An additional metabolite appears solely in the soil.

Not sure if the radioactivity is a testing signal or it is in triforine
Anyway it seems a drench is also possible.
Here is a selection of tridents affected. I think all my tridents have it to some degree and some other species

Here is a g range of severity.
The trident on the left is really having trouble getting going. The one in the middle has affected leaves on the older growth but as can happen once it gets going it seems happy enough. The fun tree on the right has extensive damage on older leaves but is still growing through it.

trifun.jpg

This is my new forest and a forest that I inherited from a friend that I am letting grow out this year.
The inherited forest at a glance seems fine but when you look closely you can see some older leaves are affected. I am starting to wonder if sun helps as this one got the most sun yet as you may see in the new forest that all trees have been in the same conditions some are worse effected than others?

trifun2.jpg

Anyway I will experiment with some foliar spray and some soil drenching to see what I get.

As has been stated to me we can't rule out this being a combination of ailments maybe thrips and fungus?

Another interesting thing is that as I have mentioned I had a large trident hanging over the fence from the neighbor that I noticed it showed small signs of this after leafing out it is now gone. I also remember a trident that was growing in our ground years ago when I first started It was an older seedling of the neighbors tree. It's leaves looked burnt and it eventually died. I put it down to me over watering with inexperience thinking it was underwaterd but Now I think there was more too it.

[Bretts]

Like usual I got carried away and foliar spayed everything that showed signs
I also drenched the one pictured on the left above with the rock!
Now I just pray that the rain does not come back

[teejay]

Just letting you know Bretts that even though I haven't replied 'til now, I'm reading and waiting with interest on the results.

[Ryan1979b]

Hey all, I think I have the same problem I just posted this on a new thread & didn't realise this thread was running. I'm thinking of getting some spray treatment today & treating it to see if it is thrips or some other bug. Will it spread to my other tree's, I have another Trident that seems to be doing well but is located about 10m way from this one.

A few photo's of the problem:

DSC_5088.jpg

DSC_5090.jpg

Cheers

Ryan

[Bretts]

I think it is fungal at the moment Ryan. Thrips would be long gone by now from what I understand.
My last spray of fungicide has not shown obvious results. Mat's advice to me was take it easy on the tree and spray spray spray. Si I will try another systemic fungicide soon that is specific to two types of root rot fungus. I will post details of that one soon and how it goes.

I strongly believe that it is a soil borne fungus at the moment. Did you do much root trimming when you repotted.
One clue I have added to my diagnosis is that the worst affected are the ones that where potted the earliest in the year. Hence the root wounds would have taken longer to heal and where sitting open in the soil for longer allowing pathogens in!