AusBonsai

dayne wrote:bretts when the diatomite dries out where does the water go it must go some where you say it dosnt come out but it dries out ???
glenda the slime isnt from the nitrogen the problem where having in this site is people jump in to posts and start quoteing things without the knolwedge behind it from your photo gallery i dont see a tree more than about 2yrs old most of mine re between 8-50+ yrs old i dont know why people are so into posting its like a comp but dont ever post their quality trees to back their theory up

I apologise for stepping on toes here if this refers to me.

Like Bretts, and Glenda, i was only trying to help.

I have a pretty good knowledge of Aluminosilicate clays, working in the aquaculture industry we use these alot and i have done quite a bit of research on these minerals. As well as this, general knowledge and experience does come into play, as i said we were only trying to help.

They fact that someones tress do not look old enough does not mean they do not have the knowledge or experience to offer advice, anyone can buy old trees, it does not mean they are more experienced or know more than any other person. Apart from this fact,this isnt a war of intelect, we were just trying to help, and offering some advice.

I myself do have ANY finished trees, having only done bonsai on and off for the last 10 years, and still have lots to learn.

I myself dont profess to know everything, in fact i need to learn a lot, but what i do know i will attemp to offer advice on with the possibly that it might help someone. If im wrong about something, or i am proven wrong, i will admit it, and i will take other peoples opinions into consideration as well.

again, my apologies if my opinions or advice rubbed anyone the wrong way, but i do not believe the age of someones trees or their time in this hobby should prevent them from giving advice to people, advice they could have learnt elsewhere, and only offer in an attemp to help people, after all that is why we are all here.

Gareth

Just one word for us Dayne; "KISS" its really very easy...

Dayne, I can only tell you what I have found. I started using diatomite before joining this forum after reading about it on Bonsai4me by Harry Harrington, and when I first noticed the slime on top of the diatomite emailed Harry Harrington who told me it was from the nitrogen in the fertiliser. I certainly don't mean to infer I know everything, but I do trust that Harry Harrington's knowledge and experience are valid and worth listening too. Yes, I am inexperienced and apologise if my inexperience offends anyone.

Im not offended Glenda and i agree with what you are saying.

dayne wrote:bretts when the diatomite dries out where does the water go it must go some where you say it dosnt come out but it dries out ???
glenda the slime isn't from the nitrogen the problem where having in this site is people jump in to posts and start quoteing things without the knolwedge behind it from your photo gallery i don't see a tree more than about 2yrs old most of mine re between 8-50+ yrs old i dont know why people are so into posting its like a comp but dont ever post their quality trees to back their theory up

Dayne this edited comment is wrong in so many ways.
It is fine for someone to point to their trees and say this is what I do and as you can see it works for me. As that is not telling the beginner they know nothing they are simply showing the results of what they do.
But for a beginner such as yourself who has only been doing bonsai for maybe one year to boast they have older trees than another beginner so how could they possibly know anything is very ugly.
It is actually harder to keep smaller trees such as Glendas healthy than it is larger trees in their larger pots.
The wise thing to do here is try to understand why Glendas are healthy and yours not in Diatomite. Not to condemn that person because you have sourced bigger or older trees than them.

anttal63 wrote:Just one word for us Dayne; "KISS" its really very easy...

The simplicity here is that a medium like Diatomite can not be overwatered. If it dries out too much you add spag moss. That's about as simple as it gets
If it is so easy for you Antonio why don't you explain why Glendas trees in Diatomite are healthy and Dayne's not. It definitely isn't because Dayne's trees are older.

Gareth wrote:

dayne wrote:bretts when the diatomite dries out where does the water go it must go some where you say it dosnt come out but it dries out ???
glenda the slime isnt from the nitrogen the problem where having in this site is people jump in to posts and start quoteing things without the knolwedge behind it from your photo gallery i dont see a tree more than about 2yrs old most of mine re between 8-50+ yrs old i dont know why people are so into posting its like a comp but dont ever post their quality trees to back their theory up

I apologise for stepping on toes here if this refers to me.

Like Bretts, and Glenda, i was only trying to help.

I have a pretty good knowledge of Aluminosilicate clays, working in the aquaculture industry we use these alot and i have done quite a bit of research on these minerals. As well as this, general knowledge and experience does come into play, as i said we were only trying to help.

They fact that someones tress do not look old enough does not mean they do not have the knowledge or experience to offer advice, anyone can buy old trees, it does not mean they are more experienced or know more than any other person. Apart from this fact,this isnt a war of intelect, we were just trying to help, and offering some advice.

I myself do have ANY finished trees, having only done bonsai on and off for the last 10 years, and still have lots to learn.

I myself dont profess to know everything, in fact i need to learn a lot, but what i do know i will attemp to offer advice on with the possibly that it might help someone. If im wrong about something, or i am proven wrong, i will admit it, and i will take other peoples opinions into consideration as well.

again, my apologies if my opinions or advice rubbed anyone the wrong way, but i do not believe the age of someones trees or their time in this hobby should prevent them from giving advice to people, advice they could have learnt elsewhere, and only offer in an attemp to help people, after all that is why we are all here.

Gareth

Gareth, I think Dayne's comment was aimed at me as I am the only one out of you, Bretts and myself who seems to have photos in a gallery. I also notice that Dayne has no photos in his gallery. Interesting.

Dayne, none of my 'trees' other than the microcrpa retusa and the juniperus squamata are more than 12 months old. The other two were bought from a nursery as established plants (not bonsai) and I have no idea how old they are. This thread was started to ask people of THEIR experiences with using 100% diatomite, and I commented on my experience, as you have of yours. That is what forums are about. No offence was ever intended.

Glenda

Hi Glenda,

I figured that, but the part that i though may have included me was "the problem where having in this site is people jump in to posts and start quoteing things without the knolwedge behind it" and " i dont know why people are so into posting its like a comp but dont ever post their quality trees to back their theory up"

Either way i thought it was uncalled for.

Anyway back to the diatomite, i have heard of some people sifting their product to get a uniform 4mm size in both diatomite and zeolite (if they use a mix) or straight diatomite.

I use the product unsifted and find it is fine, i ran short a few times filling up large syro boxes so used a layer of orchard mix (To cover the bottom to stop the media from running out the holes), then a layer of clay balls/hydroponic media mixed with some chicken manure and then the rest with 2-7mm maidenwell.

Works well so far, with the cold weather and rain we have had the watering has not been needed except of every 2-3 days if that, but no water pools on the top, and if you pick the box up, the water runs straight through.

I also thinking that orchard mix will break down slowing adding some organic material to the mix and helping with the biological malacne of the box overall, offering some remineralization of nutrients for the plant once it roots gets down that far.

I alsoi included some gernal osmocote slow release and some yates organics "all round" fertilizer to give the plant a kick start, form there i just sprinkle the composted chicken manure on top and add the other two prevbiously mentioned fertilizers as needed.

Liquid ferts are powerfeed and seasol, but overall fertilizing at this time of year has backed right off for me. it been so bloody cold on the mid north coast its not funny.

gareth

Hi everyone,

The headline asked for experience/experiences of people in growing in 100% Diatomite.

These experiences are invaluable.

Please try to keep it simple and play the question, not the person.

Conclusions drawn from observation and experiences are always worthy of contesting but in a nice way.

Grant

Look it is simple... why can't I say it holds to much moisture for to long sometimes up here in our high humidity as for my trees being older it was more about can't rusk using somthing I don't have faith in as I can't afford to loose these trees if Glenda looses her little trees they cost about $15 to replace gareth it was her I was referring to and bretts as the water leaves the diatomite as evaperation it goes into the air if the humidity is allready high it adds to this and keeps the roots even more humid and when things are hot and wet they rot simple as that as forcair spaces yes it has them but if the air is humid it's moist air

I have been growing all my pines (black, red, white and radiata) in 100% here in Melbourne for the last 4 or 5 years. They seem to love it. they fill the pot with roots and michoryzia (sp?) very quickly. The only problem i have is that the top 1-2cm doesn't seem to get colonised by roots. I think i will have a go at rectifying this with a spagnum as a top during summer or by using a finer grade of diatomite in the top 1-2 cm of the mix.

Otherwise i think it is great for pines.

dayne wrote:Look it is simple I was annoyed that everyone their is advice asked fir Brett rams his idea down everyones throat boasts to now it all and thinks of himself as a bonsai scientist above all others it's becoming a joke why can't I say itholds to much moisture for to long sometimes up here in our high humidity as for my trees being older it was more about can't rusk using somthing I don't have faith in as I can't afford to loose these trees if Glenda looses her little trees they cost about $15 to replace gareth it was her I was referring to and bretts as the water leaves the diatomite as evaperation it goes into the air if the humidity is allready high it adds to this and keeps the roots even more humid and when things are hot and wet they rot simple as that as forcair spaces yes it has them but if the air is humid it's moist air

Yes we all have to be careful of the interpretation of observations/results and rely on our own interpretation for our own trees in our microclimate..

Nothing is black and white and It is important that not too much weight is given to any one(or anyones opinions) other than by you yourself judging if the advice/recommendation is valid in your circumstances.

All the best,

Grant

I have only stated that I don't see how a medium that I understand to have the best air to water ratio of any medium can be blamed for a tree that is staying too wet. I have not even stated you are wrong I only explained what I understood and posed the question why. I welcome anyone to improve my understanding otherwise discussion is just a waste of time. Off course climate is a consideration but the question I have is how can a medium that has a lower water to air ratio than Diatomite be a better medium in a wet climate.
No one has told you to do anything with your trees. Only posed their understanding and trying to understand why you have come to such a conclusion.

Gareth,

you mentioned you use yates organics "all round" fertiliser.

Does this have another name? I can't find it on the yates website.

Paul

hi guys,

diatomite is a good medium for drainage, air to water ratio etc. i think Daynes biggest problem is that the trees he has (im taking a punt in saying this) a rather developed root system, now that mixed with diatomite cause a rather dense are of surface, ie. water tension, what this could cause is "more" moisture to stay ing the pot, the tree might be using as much as it can but it is still causing it to be too wet. this is the only thing i can come to which would cause the diatomite to stay too wet.

i wouldnt mind investigating the actual root systems of the trees that are holding to much water in the mix, or drying out quickly. i get the feeling glenda's trees are one that suck moisture quickly, for example figs, now i would assume daynes trees are mostly juniper/pine, which are a little slower in the intake. especially at this time of year when trees slow down. i would be interested to see if dayne has some figs and if he is having any trouble?

my clero even at this time are needing watering nearly two times a day. figs are starting to take up more, and my juniper and pines are quite slow at the moment. my pine are in a mix of spongalite/diatomite which seems to be a lot better for them, my experience with the spongalite even 1-2 days into it is that it dries rapidly. but is good in a mix with diatomite as diatomite holds 100% - 150% of its weight in water. the combo works well, these are short term observations so far but it looks the goods the mix of diat./spong.

it still comes down to location and MICRO climate, a micro climate can be completely different from one end of your yard to the other! what works for one wont work for another, but might for someone else. We can only advise and talk about why it works, why it might not, what is going on with it etc.

jamie.

Hi Paul,

Ill have a look tonight at home, take a picture to confirm, from what i figured its a fancy form of dynamic lifter.

Only just started using it, so results are yet to be confirmed.

Gareth