Feeding, Substrate and Watering Methods of Walter Pall

[NBPCA]

I think we should completely leave all the Hydroponics discuusion completely out.

It is a mere distraction and has nothing to do with serious bonsai discussion.

Doh (dope)

Grant

[Joel]

I respectfully disagree Grant (sorry!). These methods have far more in-common with hydroponics than commercial potting mixes. Perhaps we should drop the mentioning of illegal substances, even though s.o.p. is right; the growers of it are the most knowledgeable hydroponic growers in the world.

There is more than just genetics determining age. Its mainly environmental. Ray Nesci owns a Acacia howittii prostrata that is over 40 years old. I will challenge anybody to find an Acacia howittii that is that old in the wild. Good luck! I think the issue with age and death in bonsai is really non existent. The issue is not so much age, but size. A large tree has to use more energy to transport sugars around the tree, and the vascular tissue in the xylem looses defectiveness over large distances. The plants become larger, weaker, drop branches (which exposes tissue to pests and diseases) and eventually struggle to defend themselves. Plants that grow quickly do tend to die quickly, but i do not think this is the case with growing trees quickly yet maintaining them at a small size. Purely a hypothesis.

Joel

[NBPCA]

I respectfully disagree Grant (sorry!). These methods have far more in-common with hydroponics than commercial potting mixes. Perhaps we should drop the mentioning of illegal substances, even though s.o.p. is right; the growers of it are the most knowledgeable hydroponic growers in the world.

There is more than just genetics determining age. Its mainly environmental. Ray Nesci owns a Acacia howittii prostrata that is over 40 years old. I will challenge anybody to find an Acacia howittii that is that old in the wild. Good luck! I think the issue with age and death in bonsai is really non existent. The issue is not so much age, but size. A large tree has to use more energy to transport sugars around the tree, and the vascular tissue in the xylem looses defectiveness over large distances. The plants become larger, weaker, drop branches (which exposes tissue to pests and diseases) and eventually struggle to defend themselves. Plants that grow quickly do tend to die quickly, but i do not think this is the case with growing trees quickly yet maintaining them at a small size. Purely a hypothesis.

Joel

Completely agree with your second paragraph.

Respectfully disagree with your disagreement in paragraph one.

Grant

[ozzy]

I think we should completely leave all the Hydroponics discuusion completely out.


Grant

Thats a strange request, Walter has provided a simple and proven method on how to grow world class bonsai and that method is basically hydroponics, his system is very simple and therein lies the problem, some people just can't get their head around the simplicity of it, they refuse to believe that it can be that easy, that there must be more to it, I'm sure some are aghast at the thought of throwing their complicated soil and fertilizer mixes away and growing their plants in el cheapo brand fertilizer and non organic substrate.

[kcpoole]

I think we should completely leave all the Hydroponics discuusion completely out.


Grant

Thats a strange request, Walter has provided a simple and proven method on how to grow world class bonsai and that method is basically hydroponics, his system is very simple and therein lies the problem, some people just can't get their head around the simplicity of it, they refuse to believe that it can be that easy, that there must be more to it, I'm sure some are aghast at the thought of throwing their complicated soil and fertilizer mixes away and growing their plants in el cheapo brand fertilizer and non organic substrate.

I both disagree and agree with you here
No it is not hydroponics, as that requires the plant to be in Nutrient mix all the time ( It is not water with a bit of cheap fert). Our Bonsai need to be treated like trees in normal soils, but with Frequent water and ferts applied, but this is far from Hydroponics

I agree that people ( many who should know better) are amazed at me when I turn up to school with trees in "Just Gravel". the looks are Quite funny .
I know they work and challenge anyone to try it.

Ken

[S.O.P]

I think we are lost on the term, hydroponics. Some people are automatically associating it as a taboo, some people are confused as to what it is.

a technique of growing plants (without soil) in water containing dissolved nutrients

Now, in water doesn't necessarily mean in water. The most popular method is a flood and drain system, which waters your medium when it needs it. Now, how often you water it depends on the water holding capacity of your medium (different types), just like the constant discussion in this forum (everyone has their own favourite medium recipes).

EDIT: The most important part! Hydroponics is NOT under lights either. Plenty of hydroponic lettuce out there, you may have seen them from the road sometimes.

Your 'gravel' method, kcpoole, if you watered with nutrients as opposed to water and fert, would be considered hydroponics. Walter's method included a lot of fert, which was almost constant nutrients(Edit2: If you look at the definition, you are growing hydroponics but I think a distinction needs to be drawn between water and fert weekly, and nutrients every day). There are many different methods of hydroponics, watering with a watering can doesn't make it not hydroponics.

Back to the taboo/confusion, when I first brought it up, I was looking at it as not Bonsai but as what a plant needs to grow. Water, nutrients and air. Depending on how you combine those three, depending on what materials you choose put you in between container growing and hydroponics. I've noticed that a lot of 'Bonsai' growers on these forums and moving more and more away from soil and into inorganics, with a lot of fert. Walter's method is a good example.

[GavinG]

With respect to all concerned:

No-one is recommending the growth or consumption of illegal substances.

If we called this substance "lettuce" the discussion of growing techniques would not be altered, but no-one would feel the need to run screaming from the building.'

I'm no apologist - the monumental generational brain damage due to marihuana use is only matched by the cultural normality of getting "rat-arsed", "s--t faced" or "destroyed" three days a week long term.

Walter Pall's techniques are only a very short step from soak-and-drain hydroponics, and the issues should be discussed at that level.

Me, I'm seriously concerned that a mix that works well for a full-time professional in Germany may be murderously quick-drying in an Australian summer. I'm about to find out.

Gavin

[S.O.P]

Now, this link is nothing illegal; it's a link to a EBay Hydro shop, devoted to growing tomatos/herbs/ lettuce/assorted vegetables.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FYTOCELL-50L-SOI ... 4410wt_905

This product, called Fytocell, is a hydroponic medium. From what I understand, in a 24 degree 'grow' room, it needs watering TWICE a day (sound familiar to some Bonsai growers?). Make sure you read towards the bottom of the area below, it has a breakdown of the product there.

Now, who could see that NOT working as a Bonsai medium and why (besides aesthetics)?

Code: Select all

Is Fytocell for Hydroponics?
Fytocell has been developed to be used as 100% hydroponic growing media on its own, but can be mixed with perlite, rockwool, coir and even clay balls.

What systems can I use Fytocell in?
Fytocell will work well in a dripper or hand watered run to waste system.

Will Fytocell work in a recirculating system?
Absolutely. Either in a dripper, or flood & drain recirculating system.

Do I need to prepare Fytocell for planting?
Ideally yes. It does not matter whether you are running to waste or recirculating, it is best to run just water through the system for 24 hours. At the end of this period dump this water and start with a 1/4 or 1/2 strength nutrient solution.

Should I saturate Fytocell before starting?
If you are not going to flush the system as above, you will need to saturate the Fytocell with water in the bag for 24 hours. This also stops Fytocell being too fluffy.

Do I need to pH adjust Fytocell?
No. Fytocell comes already pH adjusted between, 5.5 – 7.0

Does Fytocell have any nutritional value?
No

When using a recirculating system, do I need to do anything different?
Fytocell has a combination of particle sizes. It is best to place a pot sock or a stocking in your pot to stop these fines. In addition, it is better if you can place a filter over your pump intake. With recirculating for 24 hours you will greatly reduce the amount of fines.

How do I plant the advanced plant into a pot of Fytocell?
Most advanced plants are grown in rockwool cubes / blocks or FytoClone. With rockwool it is very important that you place the cube/block on top of the Fytocell or only slightly into it, ie 5 mm.

Why sit the advanced plant rockwool block on top?
If the top of the rockwool block is planted flush with the top of the Fytocell, it can not self regulate its water / air content.  As Fytocell holds up to 60% water and after that releases excess water, it gives this excess to the rockwool. The root environment of the young plant becomes too wet with very little air. Creating an anaerobic situation and the young plant will die quickly.

What irrigation regime do I use in the first 0-14 days after planting the advanced plant?
Much depends on your environment, but because Fytocell holds a large amount of water you are better to water slightly less for this period. If the Fytocell starts to dry out you can slowly increase the amount of water either by volume per cycle or the number cycles.

What irrigation regime should I use in a dripper system after 14 days?
Fytocell is very flexible because it holds a lot of water and air, but still flushes and drains well.
Anyone switching from rockwool should not have to change a thing. The old adage little and often works well.
Switching from coir. After the initial 14 day period and as the roots get down into the Fytocell, Fytocell is far more tolerant to greater amounts of water than coir.
Switching from clay balls and perlite is a bit more dramatic. They both hold less water and so they are watered more often.

In summary Fytocell can be watered a range of ways from once every 1-2 days to a number of small waterings throughout the day. Fytocell does not require a large volume of water 3 - 4 or more times a day, all things being equal regarding, environment, pot and plant size.

What irrigation regime should I use in a flood & drain system after 14 days?
Fytocell is a denser product than either clay balls or rockwool. This means Fytocell relies on capillary action to move the water upwards. You may have to initially flood the tray for longer and to a higher level. However you will probably only have to do this once per day. Always pull back on the watering initially. You can always increase it if necessary.

How can I expect plants to grow and look in Fytocell?
The initial 0-14 days the plant may look like it is sitting still. In this time the plant is furiously putting roots down into the Fytocell. You then see the plant explode in growth.

 

Fytocell Qualities

Physical

The air / water ratio in Fytocell is unique with approximately 37- 40% being air and 57- 60% water. The remaining 3% is dry / solid matter and unpenetrable. This means there is almost no barrier to root growth in a physical sense.

Temperature Heat/Cool

Many substrates / medias hold either an excessive amount of air or water, but not reasonable quantities of both. As Fytocell holds this 57% water it acts as a great insulator under warm conditions, slower to heat up during the day and once warm offering some heat in the evening. Air is very quick to either heat up or cool down.
This is also why when using Fytocell and FytoClone under cool conditions that you must provide some kind of artificial heat. Due to the fact that moisture content is good at approx 60%, if the air temperature is very cold the water will become cool over time and therefore is also slower to warm up.

Moisture

The ability of Fytocell to hold water is very good. Due to this fact Fytocell can be watered slightly differently than many media. This can be done in either small irrigations, at a regular interval, or a larger irrigation perhaps as little as once per day or even 2-3 days.

Plant Available Water

Fytocell while containing good ratios of air and water has no problem in giving what water it does have, to the roots’ as they require it. For example a 10L or  2.3 gal pot saturated, holds approximately 5L or 1.2gal of water. In experiments, plants have been able to stay green and grow in these pots even to the point where there is not even a drop of water left in the Fytocell. There is of course some stress, but there is no other media that does this.
The plant available water abilities of Fytocell are amazing.

Capillary Action

Fytocell has excellent capillary action. It takes up water both vertically and horizontally. A pot with holes in the bottom, filled with Fytocell, will draw water upwards approximately 15cm or 6 inches. This water will move at an even level up through the pot. It will not saturate to a percentage higher than approximately 60% by volume when drawing water from below.

Drainage

Fytocell drains by gravity. As long as the water/nutrient solution has some where to drain to, it will never hold more that approximately 60% moisture by volume.
If  Fytocell is watered too much, and too often, you may not allow enough time for Fytocell to gravity drain.

Cation Exchange

Fytocell has a low cation exchange ability, which means it flushes salt build up easily. 

Fytocell Flakes

Part of the success of Fytocell is it’s large air component. Therefore when placing the saturated Flakes in the pot do not compress these down. This does mean over time there may be some natural slumpage, but this will have no effect on the established plant. If you want to you can top up the pot.

Fytocell Slabs

These are not as robust as some other media types, however this has absolutely no bearing on Fytocells’ great performance. If the slabs break, just manually push them back together. Due to the way Fytocell holds air/water and it’s great capillary action
These cracks/breaks do NOT cause a problem.

FytoClone

Do not over water and keep in a warm position. Preferably on a heat pad

[Grant Bowie]

Kanuma and perlite have almost the same properties.Dry Weight,wet weight, water holding percentage, air filled porosity. One is natural and one is artificial.

To label one as hydroponics and the other not is a distraction and has nothing to do with good bonsai,

You could say the japanese have been doing hydroponics for hundreds of years but why would you bother.

Grant

[ozzy]

Yes there seems to be some confusion regarding hydroponics, hydroponics is definately not about the growing of illegal drugs, drug growers have certainly embraced hydroponics to further their own ends for sure but thats a very small part of the real hydroponic industry, I live in a market garden area and there are plenty of huge commercial vegetable growing operations around here using hydroponics, one huge benefit of the recyling systems is the enormous water savings that can be made with those systems, nothing is wasted.

[Grant Bowie]

Yes there seems to be some confusion regarding hydroponics, hydroponics is definately not about the growing of illegal drugs, drug growers have certainly embraced hydroponics to further their own ends for sure but thats a very small part of the real hydroponic industry, I live in a market garden area and there are plenty of huge commercial vegetable growing operations around here using hydroponics, one huge benefit of the recyling systems is the enormous water savings that can be made with those systems, nothing is wasted.

Amounts of water used in Bonsai are small whereas for commercial fixed repetative cropping Hydroponics are ideal; once again not much to do with bonsai.

bonsai isn't topiary, topiary isn't bonsai but some similar techniques are used. Fine but don't confuse one with the other.

sorry I am being a bit combative but I hope you see what I mean.

Grant

[krittas]

interesting post....
there seems to be alot of people reading into this abit to much in the wrong way....
i have used hydroponics to grow vegtables as there is a family member who has allergies to some pesticides that are sprayed on veges etc..there are hydroponic shops all over the place even bunnings sells the chemicals...one product that you all seem to talk about is readily available from hydroponic shops "superthrive"...
Im all for using differant methods to enhance our hobbie...why not..
take it on board every little bit helps..we are all on here to help each other to get better...

[MattA]

Bodhi,

Its an interesting question you raise and it seems most dont think it will affect the long term life of a plant. Even citing An Acacia that has been kept as bonsai for much longer than its natural term in the wild as support for the case. There is a huge difference.

I am uncertain about how 'accelerating' growth (ie getting the tree to grow at what would be its natural rate for a full size plant in its prime of life) will affect the long term life of a tree. You cannot speed up the process beyond what the plants genetics allow, having said that, we do not really know the true potential of the genes of any plant. Look at what turns up each year in the rounds of new hybrids in shapes forms & colours never seen before or even thought possible, regardless of the species.

Something I can comment on with experience, how growth rates affect durability of the timber produced. Lets use a very common bonsai subject the Ficus .
We know from various tests & experiments that some can grow quite happily in almost pure fertiliser/manure and produce explosive growth rates, getting huge in no time. The same species can grow on rock and survive with what little bit of water comes its way, food is almost non existent, the growth slows to a snails pace.

Take 2 seedlings of the same age & similar size etc. Plant them in equal sized pots of pure inorganic media (of your choosing) feed one the old half strength (or even not at all) and the other using Walter's, "fast grow", or any other heavy feed regime you choose to devise, I might plant one in the middle of the new hen house! In 5 yrs time the differences will be huge, I have seen figs produce 8" trunks in that time with the right environment & adequate feed. I have also seen trees that havent gotten any bigger than the seedling that was bought & planted 5yrs before, havent many of us?

What is that wood made up of & how will it last? The large tree has put out an inch or more of wood each year & its light & spongy and rots easily unless treated & even when treated it will still rot out from the centre due to moisture trapped within it. The small tree has laid down slithers of ultra dense hard wood with almost no air spaces or trapped moisture. I have a fig that came off rock that is well over the 100yr mark, the wood is so dense & hard it hasnt rotted because there is no way for moisture to get into it to feed the rot.

This is something anyone can test for themselves if they are interested enough.

I did alot of research when i considered building my own home and all the alternative's to brick/timber & tile/tin. If you look at any commercially farmed timber and the statistics regarding its strength & durability compared with that harvested from natural growth forests. The result is weaker timber overall, less resistant to insect & fungal attack/decay, less strength/resiliance in compression, shock & flex tests. Only species that make fast growth rates for a given climate & region are grown in commercial operations and are usually chosen for the fact that they make faster growth rates than in there natural range as well as an ability to market it.

So speed up the process and you watch out for rot and insect more, slow down the growth enough & you can effectively put a tree into an almost permanent state of suspension allowing you to prolong the life, the 2 are incomparable.

S.O.P,
I was watering with fresh nutrient mix every other day and dam water the other 3 waterings. I would then sacrifice 20litres of tank water to flush the salt build up about once a fortnight. If I left it longer the trees started to suffer. Now I have just typed that out & re read it, I can see a couple of issues that might present part of the problem & solution ... the dam water, I was in an area with a high & saline water table, while there was no salt salt taste to the water it was highly mineral in taste (these are salts). I had limited tank water & objected to using tank water on this experiment. It lasted 6months & then I gave up, went back to dynamic lilfter and am happy enough with how my trees perform.

I still need to find a good all round feed for my sensitive plants if anyone can recommend something thats easily obtainable or substitutable.

Matt

[S.O.P]

Yes there seems to be some confusion regarding hydroponics, hydroponics is definately not about the growing of illegal drugs, drug growers have certainly embraced hydroponics to further their own ends for sure but thats a very small part of the real hydroponic industry, I live in a market garden area and there are plenty of huge commercial vegetable growing operations around here using hydroponics, one huge benefit of the recyling systems is the enormous water savings that can be made with those systems, nothing is wasted.

Amounts of water used in Bonsai are small whereas for commercial fixed repetative cropping Hydroponics are ideal; once again not much to do with bonsai.

bonsai isn't topiary, topiary isn't bonsai but some similar techniques are used. Fine but don't confuse one with the other.

sorry I am being a bit combative but I hope you see what I mean.

Grant

To further your point, bonsai is the growing of plants. Hydroponics is the growing of plants. Topiary is the growing of plants. Something in common is these plants have roots that grow in a medium which are supplied by nutrients in different means.

Kanuma and perlite have almost the same properties.Dry Weight,wet weight, water holding percentage, air filled porosity. One is natural and one is artificial.

Yes, they do. I am passing that product on based on real world results in an industry that cannot be named compared to these products you mention.

Artificial/Natural. Are they soil?

S.O.P,
I was watering with fresh nutrient mix every other day and dam water the other 3 waterings. I would then sacrifice 20litres of tank water to flush the salt build up about once a fortnight. If I left it longer the trees started to suffer. Now I have just typed that out & re read it, I can see a couple of issues that might present part of the problem & solution ... the dam water, I was in an area with a high & saline water table, while there was no salt salt taste to the water it was highly mineral in taste (these are salts). I had limited tank water & objected to using tank water on this experiment. It lasted 6months & then I gave up, went back to dynamic lilfter and am happy enough with how my trees perform.

I still need to find a good all round feed for my sensitive plants if anyone can recommend something thats easily obtainable or substitutable.

Interesting. Were you using a PH tester and an EC/PPM tester as well? You mention salt could of been the cause, and with further information at hand it looks likely, but without PH testing, could you have been suffering a nutrient lockout? EC/PPM also needs to be done daily, as the plants transpire water molecules, the nutrient mix gets stronger so more water and PH adjustment is needed (not likely in your case as it was a 2 day cycle). Could the nutrient mix have been just too strong?

To others reading that last sentence, a nutrient mix gets stronger as water is used faster than nutrients, more water is added so your EC/PPM number remains the same, which is then repeated until your nutrient mix drops below the number you want. This number can be arbitrarily set by you, or based on your plants needs, heavy feeders have a higher number. Though, more discovery's are made that lower numbers work just as well and are a lot safer for plants, it's all up to individual testing.

A lot of people in 'other' industries will never use soil because they can't control the exact nature of nutrient control like a form of hydroponics can. Some people like having a lot of control over what their plant receives.

2nd question, our nurseryman actually recommends to NEVER use Dynamic Lifter for anything due to the 'hot' nature of chicken manure, particularly on natives. He uses blood and bone. Seaweed, worm castings are easy enough, but are, perhaps, more for root development than fertilising.

[FlyBri]

Gday folks!

Thankfully, it is not often that I need to speak in a Moderatorial role at AB.c, but I feel I need to do so now.

I have received a number of requests to edit and/or close the thread because of its reference to hydroponic growing. Upon reading the thread numerous times, I can see why the comparison between Walter's growing method and hydroponic growing has been made, and I believe that discussion of such is valid. If Walter has it absolutely right, then all the discussion and debate is for naught, but what if he hasn't?..

I can see (but I don't understand) that a number of folks are concerned that Cannabis has been mentioned - in many cases as the benchmark for hydroponic growing methods. I have never grown Cannabis - or any plant - hydroponically, so I am relatively ignorant on that score. However, I find myself wondering if we can in good conscience abandon all the good growing info that has been offered on the hydro front, simply on the basis that somebody might use our discussion to go out and grow dope on a commercial basis, or that we might be seen to condone dope growing.

In short, I am in favour of this discussion continuing un-edited, so long as it pertains to Mr Pall's initial post. What have we got to lose?

If anybody has any issues regarding the thread's continuation, please contact me via PM.

Thanks.

FlyBri.