AusBonsai

Im starting to look at bonsai as an art where you have a set list of guidelines, but if the tree does not give the criteria to fit one set of guidelines, you style it as you would like it too be seen, following the other guidelines.
Bonsai is an art, you are the artist, at the end of the day you must be happy with the work.

Asus101 wrote:Bonsai is an art, you are the artist, at the end of the day you must be happy with the work.

Yeah well said. If we all stuck to the rules 100% then all our bonsai would look the same
Look at Robert Stevens bonsai. They break all the rules but still look SOOOO good! He is a true artist!
BB

I still believe there are rules, but not artistic rules, rather horticultural rules. The guidelines however are there as to help insure that the tree looks in proportion as its very important factor in all art.

I've always read this thread, and I've found the topic to being very interesting. Whilst 'Googling' I came across this, it has several pages that are worth reading.
http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/conten ... tistry.htm

It is an interesting idea that bonsai should adhear to a set of `rules` but i dont think it is a simple as that. In Japan most of the rules are to do with Height which separates the various sized bonsai into different exhibition classes.

As for rules for styling, there are certain things that should be considered but they are not rules in a `you have to do this` manner. Most importantly when styling one should consider balance and negative and positive space. Then you add to this revealing areas of the bonsai you wish to show off and hiding areas that you do not wish to show. thats pretty much how to style.

The rules that i think are most important when styling are those to do with technique. With technique there is definately a right and a wrong way to do things and no grey areas. At the end of the day how you style your bonsai is up to you but when you apply the wire and other shaping methods there is a definate set of rules to follow. The rules are around for a reason, they make styling easier, look better and create less chance of damage occuring while styling. If you want to spendtime learning rules learn to properly wire first. I consider myself still very much in the learning phase regarding wireing and i am enjoying getting better at it. Then there is the techniques associated with creating foliage pads that look full and have even density which mainy come from wireing and correct pruning.

soltan wrote: Next I pick the one with the most prominent back branch as first branch like Grants.

P1030624.JPG

Having a short back branch as a first or second branch is a common thing in Japan and it is called `Nozoki no Eda` (i think thats the spelling) which roughly translates to `peeping branch`. You see it alot on bunjin trees. In fact the white pine in my `some Japanese trees` thread has a nozoki no eda.

That is a great article eliast. It is one of the articles that I would reference too for some clarification on design.

I aprreciate your thoughts on this subject from the Japanes teachers Jow and I don't think I would disagree with anything you have said but I would look forward to disecting your thoughts.

Glad some are enjoying the discussion. There are many rules to go

I plan on visiting this subject again soon, I thought I better wait for Pup to get back since I had dragged him into the discussion . We started talking about Rules at our table at the Summit dinner and although I was not keen to get into the debate over beers and balmain bugs it was very interesting to find common thoughts coming from a level 1 AABC demonstrator about how we percieve the rules.
I do think that some of the confusion is to do with culture. The rules we have been given come from an Eastern culture and I thought these quotes from eastern thinking are relevant here.

"Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions"

"In every work of art there should be space for the mind to travel between like and dislike"

"Leave space for the imagination, Chinese thinking of beauty not clear, they don't let you see everything at the one time"

Now although this thinking is important I think it equally important that we do not ignore our own culture and how we learn or create art.

Also a quote from Peter Adams when asked how do we convince the public in Australia that bonsai is an art.
"That is very simple. You need to stop making excuses for your native trees as bonsai"
I found this very profound as I always thought it a cop out to blame the tree for looking uninteresting

I always give this subject thought as it is the principle of my thinking in bonsai.
The Quotes that I gave make me think that the culture difference between east and west is something that should not be ignored by a westerner gardener.
What is it when you are expected to come to the same conclusion when very broad instructions are given. It is not something expected of the western world.
I will Vere of to the right and take on a very respected new bonsai inspirationalist.
Robert Steven. He has the release of a new book at the moment and I am disappointed to say I have not yet purchased the first. I like critics and I understood that Robert Stevens was a gifted artist that had not worked out how to tell other people how he did it. Yet anyone that puts out two books with rave reviews must have something to say.
He seems very interested in this subject at the moment with articles in and out of his books that relate to it.
I find I agree with alot he states but then he comes out with

This tree seems to follow the "rules" correctly, but it ends up with an awful design,

Which makes me think this guy is dealing with an unfinished theory.
Is this tree ugly or does it follow the rules.

I'm a photographer and there are accepted photographic "rules" when it comes to composition. But every accomplished photographer will tell you to learn the rules, learn to be able to use them. when you have done so, you will know when and how you can break those rules.

I think this is very applicable to composition and design of Bonsai.

I think its important to understand the "rules" and the reasons for their existence before we go out and try to redefine them.

Here are a couple of interesting articles from Robert
http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=2347
http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/forum/view ... 121&t=2766

I must say he has me intrigued with his Leonardo da Vinci discussion.

Bit slow on the boards today. Can anyone pick what rule it is that makes this tree ugly? I can pick 3. Yet Robert gives it as an example of following the rules?
Edit: the drawing above

Yep that's right it has a big ugly C section after a static base. C sections are to be avoided especially with this static base it is like the story of Hansel and Gretal in the middle of Star Wars It does not fit. Then there is the first back branch in the centre of the design. Also the three first branches are way too light for the design compared to the top.
The asymmetrical balance is way out with the negative space on the middle right in no way compensating for the trunk that stands out on the middle left.
Does Robert Steven really think this is an example of a tree that follows the rules. Yes it is ugly but I don't think it follows the rules.

I agree it is bloody ugly.
As for following the rules. Well there are the slaves, to rules then there are artistes.
Then there are Bonsai enthusiasts, and Bonsai professionals.
Then there are people like Masahiko Kimura Hatsuji Kato Kunio Kobayashi.
People like to call these masters, they prefer sensei.
I feel that to analyse each move you make in Bonsai, is going to cost you the most important part of Bonsai.
That is your imagination. I have said in the past the most important thing in this pastime is to enjoy it.
We all have our own levels of acomplishment and aims the most important of all is the best of your ability.
Also a want to go that extra inch or cm. JMHO Pup

I have had friends tell me they have recked trees because they thought they had to follow the rules. I may be lucky that I got alot of "learn the rules and then forget them" when I first got interested in Bonsai. It was after some time I started to believe this is swinging the pendulum too far back the other way. I don't think we ever could or would need to unlearn the rules. Off course that would be silly.
The rules where given to us by the eastern practitioners and some have thought there was something lost in translation. The rules are just not as simple as left branch, right branch back branch. Yet this is still the best way to get the principle across to a beginner.
The recent show on Chinese gardens in the series "Around the world in 80 Gardens" had some interesting insights to Chinese culture that would be relative here

."Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions"

and another that rings true with Pups sentiments.

"Leave space for the imagination, Chinese thinking of beauty not clear, they don't let you see everything at the one time"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb27velJB-8
So maybe there is no more to these rules in Chines culture. Yet I think the rules we are given to follow have been influenced by the Japanese Culture. They have evolved from the penjin free style to a more refined style and rules such as, no deadwood on deciduous trees, have been adhered to for a long time.
Then there is us. We could study Chinese or Japanese Culture until it is second nature and adopt their full philosophy on art or as I prefer to do we can adopt the most appealing parts as they relate to Bonsai and adapt it to our culture as the Japanese did.
The most important thing we can take from eastern culture art is the simplicity and that nature is never perfect so asymmetrical balance is very important. Western art is often very much more detailed and complicated.
So what will our culture bring to the table. After flirting with the idea that there was a golden set of rules we snub our nose at them and say we now know what we are doing and we don't need those rules. I think the final phase will be a full review and explanation of the rules. It is our culture and I can't help but to think why a rule is what it is. Again the most basic, why is the rule left right back. So we can see the trunk get depth and create asymmetrical balance. I think this rule is pretty useless without that understanding. Our culture tends to complicate this with more of an explanation. This can be accomplished in many ways such as ...We are confused by ."Hints and suggestions are considered better guides than obvious directions"
Maybe this will create some that seem to have no imagination but I think they would have that trouble in any regard at least they would have a set of rules that made sense to their culture.
I find that when the imagination goes wandering is when I call on my understanding of the rules to try and make it happen. There may be a branch that is not in a perfect place but the tree would be less without it. Only a indepth understanding of how the left right rule works will enable you to find a way to use it and often this can lead to a very exciting tree as the viewer trys to work out how that branch was placed there and still the tree remains balanced.