My opinon on why bonsai is in trouble and how to fix it.

[bodhidharma]

Bodhidharma you missed the point
Or chose to ignore it

I have had this conversation a hundred times since i have been an Aus Bonsaier and really cannot be bothered.

[Guy]

It is a nice feeling when you suddenly " know", after months of looking and wondering, how to improve the tree--

[rookie93]

so $174 per hour.. not a bad return

When are you opening a nursery mate!?

Does that equate to twenty years of time put into a quality tree, for some one to say Shari that's dear at $2000,00.

Biggest problem is the Knockers, Australia has some very good artists, they are willing to help any one who is willing to help them selves.
Sticks in pots can and have been made into nice Bonsai ( takes time), but I am old so I don't count, new Ideas are not really new just like fashion recycled.

Just my feeble Pup

I don't want to open a nursery but beginners need encouragement, not to be told their $49 investment can't become something of value after living with it for many years, once they have lived with it for a few years they might be more inclined to invest in more expensive material but only then. It is hard to see the hours when it is little minutes each day that it takes to make great trees like you have Pup but those hours don't exist in that $49 tree, is the price justifiable beyond supporting the higher end that does not sell. They are not called the bread & butter of the industry without reason.

It also takes those years to really appreciate them, I love my simple little starters and look forward to seeing them mature as I grow & learn this amazing art. I am scared to touch my mentors trees even when he asks, I don't want to do anything wrong, I would be the same if I bought one of your trees.

[fae]

Well said Rookie.

I still have some of my $2 sticks in pots that I purchased many years ago.

As with most newbies I wanted one of every plant I saw. I could experiment, wire, grow, kill and find what thrives in my care in my garden.

When visiting any of the nurseries in Sydney I have always found the proprietor friendly and willing to give advice. There are not many professional people who give so much advice free whilst trying to earn a living. They want your repeat business.

Enjoy your hobbie and I am sure the joy will spread.

I will continue to have my morning coffee outside in my garden whether it is trendy or not.

Fiona

[63pmp]

Someone brought fencing and tennis up as an example of how one hobby will just fade away while another remains buoyant; but there is more to this story. I think it's interesting and reflects what is happening in bonsai, if you have some imagination you might see it as well.

Tennis and Fencing, at the height of their popularity in the 1890's were both sports of the wealthy elite. In fact, all the sports that were included in the initial Olympics of 1896 were sports of the wealthy elite. To be eligible for entry, you had to be an amateur (amateur back then meant wealthy elite as they were the only ones with enough money to be able to train and practice for them) or you had to be an officer in the military. This was because the Olympics was for the wealthy, elite white people of Europe.
Popular sports of the masses weren't allowed, baseball, cricket, football, etc, were all out. Not for the Olympics till after the second world war, some are still out. Tennis was in, and then went out as it became professional. Why. The only way to play these sports was to be a professional, not only were professionals lower class white folk, they was also non European Whites.

Well, after two world wars, a Great Depression, collapse of Empires with the redistribution of wealth from rich to poor via Keynesian economic principals, things changed. Even though the sports are both entertaining to watch and play, fencing remains an elitist hobby that hardly anyone plays while tennis cleverly re-badged itself as a game for the masses. Tennis has aspects that make it attractive to the masses, it's exciting, easy and affordable to play, requires no specialist kit, has interaction with other people etc. Tennis also supports an industry 10,000X larger then fencing does. Tennis as a hobby is much more interesting with publications, promotions, exhibitions, increased interaction with other interested people simply because of the number of folk interested in it.

The re-imaging of tennis wasn't an accident, it didn't just happen by itself. The industry of tennis made it happen, it worked at getting the game out to the masses, who's interest was mostly at a hobby level; and it still does. By having a strong grass roots base of essentially hobbyists, the industry supports a lot of elite professionals. How many professionals does Fencing support?
Which way do you want bonsai to go?

I could go on and on, but there isn't much point. Plenty of people were telling car manufacturers in USA they were in trouble before they imploded, but they didn't hear it.

Thanks everyone for your time, ideas and opinions.

I'm signing off from this thread.

Paul

[Pup]

Paul has signed off on this I will add just another thought to those that are frightened to make mistakes.
My Mentor when I was learning my trade, said he who makes mistakes learns, he who makes the same mistake twice is a fool.

Cheers Pup

[Watto]

I have followed this thread with only a modicum of interest.
For me personally I think there is not a real lot wrong with bonsai in Australia. It is improving and evolving and the quality and quantity now is vastly greater than it was 20 years ago. I am sure it needs "things" to continue that improvement along its journey but confident that will occur.
A few more positive and ambitious bonsai artists are needed and I have no doubt there will be more emerging as we progress and get younger people involved. I am involved with one of Australia's smallest bonsai society's and we are certainly not elitist and are more than happy to share our small but valuable bonsai "wealth" such as the ability to dig quality yamadori.
Think positive, speak positive, act positive and be positive.

[kcpoole]

For me a big part of the problem is when you walk into a bonsai nursery & can buy a stock tree for $8, go back a week later & the exact same tree is now in an $8 pot with no training or even pruning but the price jumps to $49.

How much time does it take to create that $49 tree?
Materials = 8 + 8 + 4 ( Wire, Mesh, fertiliser, etc) = $20, Leaves about $29 for labour. is that a decent return?

Ken

Those are all retail prices Ken... how much margin was built into those prices to begin with?

possibly about 10% if they are lucky. I charge 15% markup on hardware and materials and in my industry that is probably low. Back to the topic, the nursery owner might make $2 - $3 on those products so if they scan squeeze a little more with some "Value add" then who can blame them.

$29 labour for about oohh 10mins tops.. so $174 per hour.. not a bad return

We all enjoy going to a nursery and having a chat with the owner / staff which they then hae as non productive time, in real life no one is 100% productive over the course of a day, maybe more like about 80% tops, then that makes more like $140 per hour or less. Given that the nursery will have overhead to pay for I think that sort of return is not over the top.

note, I am not in the industry so am only guessing with pricing and profits, but to me they are educated estimates but happy to be advise otherwise by thos that do have actual figures.

So you see it as a fair price, ok. That tree is then bought by a beginner and they proudly come to this forum & show it off, only to be ridiculed & told to give it some movement & stick it in a big grow pot for a few years...

That has go nothing to do with the nursery does it? but a lot to do with how members here behave. As a member of the moderator team, i very cognisant of that attitude and thankfully we have avoided most of that sort of comment.
we are happy to be notified of anyone misbehaving when they do.

ps, I still have my original $49 equivalent tree. . I am very happy with how it has developed over the last 15 years too

Ken

[Phoenix238]

After reading this I went back and checked my very first post about my first "stick in a pot" and didn't find a mention of "stick it in the ground for a few years" until I mentioned fattening it up. Most of the posts were supportive and offered ways to improve the overall shape.

[bonsaisensation]

For me a big part of the problem is when you walk into a bonsai nursery & can buy a stock tree for $8, go back a week later & the exact same tree is now in an $8 pot with no training or even pruning but the price jumps to $49.

How much time does it take to create that $49 tree?
Materials = 8 + 8 + 4 ( Wire, Mesh, fertiliser, etc) = $20, Leaves about $29 for labour. is that a decent return?

Ken

Those are all retail prices Ken... how much margin was built into those prices to begin with?

possibly about 10% if they are lucky. I charge 15% markup on hardware and materials and in my industry that is probably low. Back to the topic, the nursery owner might make $2 - $3 on those products so if they scan squeeze a little more with some "Value add" then who can blame them.

$29 labour for about oohh 10mins tops.. so $174 per hour.. not a bad return

We all enjoy going to a nursery and having a chat with the owner / staff which they then hae as non productive time, in real life no one is 100% productive over the course of a day, maybe more like about 80% tops, then that makes more like $140 per hour or less. Given that the nursery will have overhead to pay for I think that sort of return is not over the top.

note, I am not in the industry so am only guessing with pricing and profits, but to me they are educated estimates but happy to be advise otherwise by thos that do have actual figures.


Ken

there seemed to be a bit of confusion as to how the bonsai nursery arrived at pricing their "malsai" type products. for someone who unwillingly is in that industry, there are couple of considerations:

1-these "commercial bonsai" are produced and wholesaled to general nurseries and florist. the $8 starter tree in a 6 inch bonsai pot ($6) are sold at the retail outlets at $49. 50% of that is generally the mark up so the grower gets $25 for producing it. the visible materials to make a starter 6 inch bonsai is roughly $15. not to mention all the hidden costs.
and when the growers are to sell the same type of starter bonsai at their nursery, they have to price it at $49 as well. otherwise they could undermine the wholesale customers .

2-the so called "mallsai" when they are sold in the shopping malls, where i am in victoria, the shopping centres charges anything from $3500 to $7000 a week. so the same 6 inch bonsai priced at $49, IF it is sold, the grower keeps roughly 20% as profit.

3-these two are the situations where the mallsais are produced and sold in the duration of a few months. what happen to those that are not sold? well, they are taken back to the nursery, take up the space, fed, watered, weeded, trimmed, root pruned and back to the same pot for another year to sell often at the same price as the year before. this time, the margin for profit shrinked.

so these are the realities, and i know that $49 for a 6 inch starter bonsai is overpriced for the quality and potential it possessed to be a bonsai. that's why we have the $8 range for you bonsai enthusiasts.

i have a batch of 5 year old japanese black pines grown from seed. they have been root pruned hard 3 years ago, trunkline wired 2 years ago, wire taken off last year. and in that 3 years, the branches are selectively thinned out and old needles removed every year. in that effort, only about 15% developed a low sacrifice branch. they are about 20cm in height and most have 10 or more branches with buds close to the trunk. the trunk size is averagely the size of my thumb. priced between $30-$50, i sell about 15 a year. where as the mallsais, 5000 or so are sold each year to keep the nursery afloat.

these are the realities. whilst i will keep investing the time to develop quality bonsai materials for the bonsai community, the mallsais keep me alive.

regards

[squizzy]

Well explained. It just goes to show we do need malsai to keep our bonsai nurseries open.

Squizz

[kcpoole]

Thanks Bonsaisensation for the explanation on the financial realities of commercial bonsai.

As with Squizz, i think the mallsai industry is a needed avenue for our professional nurseries to be involved in, and I believe they also play a part in furthering the interest of Bonsai in the general community.
If out of all those trees sold, one % of the owners go on to learn more about what quality Bonsai is, and then take their hobby further then that will be a benefit to all?
It is up to us all as members of this and other forums, to treat their posts and questions with respect!

Ken

[Phoenix238]

I agree Ken, they say it takes all types and bonsai is no different. Everyone has to start somewhere and for those of us without exposure to "proper" bonsai that may be the only way

[rookie93]

That has go nothing to do with the nursery does it? but a lot to do with how members here behave. As a member of the moderator team, i very cognisant of that attitude and thankfully we have avoided most of that sort of comment.
we are happy to be notified of anyone misbehaving when they do.

ps, I still have my original $49 equivalent tree. . I am very happy with how it has developed over the last 15 years too

Ken

I didn't realise this was about nurseries, thought that was another thread (which has been locked, as a moderator you would/should be aware of such), the 2 are separate tho connected issues. As for members behaviour here it seems rather uneven in the way 'rules' are applied...

[aaronwithana]

The problem with any retail industry is that consumers put too much emphasis on price.

If you want to support any retailer, you need to take into consideration their overheads as well as their quality of service.
Providing nursery stock within a 30 min drive is half the service, I would much prefer setting Leong in bonsai south than spending a whole day driving around trying to find a bargain.

Bonsai nurseries are crucial for obtaining stock (unless you're happy to grow everything yourself from seed or cuttings).

Someone is always getting a raw end of the deal, and as long as we need a service provided we need to show our support with our dollar.