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Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 13th, 2016, 7:38 pm
by Bonsaiforest
Think we have success...Although in the high temps we've been having in Sydney of late, my air layer has been drying out very quickly. Previously my layer was too wet so I placed numerous holes in the bottom of bag to let excess moisture escape. Now in the last couple of weeks (hot days) & the bag filling with roots it dries out extremely fast. Maybe it's a combination of the holes in the bottom and the roots sucking up all of the remaining moisture.
Last Friday I went to check on my Zelkova and the top & tips of tree were burnt to a crisp. I removed the foil and was shocked to see that the sphagnum was white & dry (like just out of a new bag). So now I've resorted to unwrapping the top & filling with a light seasol solution, letting it drain & re-tying followed by electrical tape to seal, foil back on then check in a couple of days. Repeat if necessary. Have moved it to a shadier area of the yard for foliage to recover.
Question is when is the best time to remove layer...When to Chop....? How to go about it...? Is there a preferred method when removing layers...? With the remaining of the parent tree I'd like to create a broom style Zelkova. For best results is it best to cut the top flat or cut a wedge in the middle or a wedge to one side...?
All advice welcome
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 14th, 2016, 5:30 pm
by Ray M
Bonsaiforest wrote:Think we have success...Although in the high temps we've been having in Sydney of late, my air layer has been drying out very quickly. Previously my layer was too wet so I placed numerous holes in the bottom of bag to let excess moisture escape. Now in the last couple of weeks (hot days) & the bag filling with roots it dries out extremely fast. Maybe it's a combination of the holes in the bottom and the roots sucking up all of the remaining moisture.
Last Friday I went to check on my Zelkova and the top & tips of tree were burnt to a crisp. I removed the foil and was shocked to see that the sphagnum was white & dry (like just out of a new bag). So now I've resorted to unwrapping the top & filling with a light seasol solution, letting it drain & re-tying followed by electrical tape to seal, foil back on then check in a couple of days. Repeat if necessary. Have moved it to a shadier area of the yard for foliage to recover.
Question is when is the best time to remove layer...When to Chop....? Looking at your photo of the root ball the layer could come off now. How to go about it...? Is there a preferred method when removing layers...? Just saw the layer off under the root ball. Soak the layer in a bucket of Seasol for at least an hour, use 30ml per 9litre mix, Give the layer a jiggle up and down every now and then to see if any of the moss comes away. If it doesn't, plant the layer as is. Remember the roots will be very fragile so be careful not to break them. If some of the moss comes away, and you can get up under the roots, you could cut off any of the trunk exposed below the layer. I would also put some stay wires on the tree to prevent the roots from moving. Once you see the tree is spreading new roots, and the tree has become stable in the pot, you will be able to remove the stays. Keep giving the new tree a drink of Seasol at least a couple of times a week until you see some good growth. If you use a watering can to apply the Seasol, you can water over the foliage as well. Keep the tree in a cooler place for a while to let it recover. With the remaining of the parent tree I'd like to create a broom style Zelkova. For best results is it best to cut the top flat or cut a wedge in the middle or a wedge to one side...? This is a decision that you may have to make. Both flat and a wedge in the middle are used successfully.
All advice welcome
Hope this all makes sense.
Regards Ray
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 14th, 2016, 7:09 pm
by shibui
For best results is it best to cut the top flat or cut a wedge in the middle or a wedge to one side...?
A flat top cut will usually result in swelling around the cut as the branches and new callus start to thicken. A wedge shaped cut will help to alleviate that problem. One interesting technique I have seen is to flat cut the top then drill out the centre (not too deep say 1-2 cm?) with a large drill. With the centre hollow you can cut wedges out between the branches even if there's an odd number of branches.
Your layer certainly looks ok to cut off. As Ray's rely: just cut the trunk below the new roots and pot it into a new pot. I agree with the need to secure the new plant into the pot so it won't move too much. If you think you can shorten trunk stub or remove moss without breaking the new roots feel free to do it when you cut the trunk but neither is essential at this stage. You can do that next year when the roots ill be more strongly attached to the trunk.
I don't use seasol and my trees survive very well without.
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 15th, 2016, 8:39 pm
by Bonsaiforest
Thank You to RayM & Shibui for giving me the little push to go ahead and remove the layer of my Zelkova.
I was definitely hesitant and had held back with the big chop....probably due to lack of confidence and experience with layers. Well when the masters say it's ok then it must be...!!! Today was a perfect day for playing doctor & performing the procedure. Being overcast with spells of rain were perfect conditions & my mind at ease.
Tree was originally 80cm... Now after layering it's a touch under 60cm tall (of which 2 & 1/2 inches cant be seen as I planted it quite deep)
I know that my Zelkova has a pretty gnarly look about it, not the usual straight trunk & broom style that you would see in the wild. Yet I'm very happy with the tree & can see real potential, appreciating that it now provides much more impact being a shorter stockier tree. It has nice taper with many branches to choose from for main branch selection (initial styling to be next year when roots are more established)
Trunk of the parent plant is approximately 7.5cm wide at base & is 12-13cm tall & will be trained into a powerful short trunk broom style.
All comments welcome
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 15th, 2016, 9:18 pm
by shibui
There's even more roots there than I thought from the first pictures. I've separated layers with far les roots than that - no problems.
You should aim for a broom style with the lower trunk but be aware that the callus that forms to heal the cut may thicken the top of that trunk. New shoots should form all around the cut (like all elms) When they all start to grow pick 3 or 4 that look strong and healthy and well spaced then rub all the others off so the top does not thicken too much.
I have talked to other growers who have driller out the centre of the trunk and cut v shape notches between the developing main branches so that thickening from callus does not show on the trunk.
Whatever you decide I'm sure the tree(s) will make great bonsai.
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 16th, 2016, 8:29 am
by Bonsaiforest
Thanks very much Shibui, really appreciate your thoughts... will go ahead with the drilling of the centre and cutting wedges between new shoots/branches. If this alleviates the problem of callus on the trunk excess reverse taper in the future then I'll be a happy.
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: January 16th, 2016, 10:38 am
by Ray M
Hi Bonsaiforest,
The layer looks really good. I'm sure it should take off and grow quiet well.
I like the idea that Shibui has mentioned about drilling the centre in the remaining stock tree. If you make the V cuts between the new shoots that will allow excess water to drain away and prevent rotting.
Regards Ray
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 10:01 am
by Mbunro
how big is too big for an air layer?
have a big old pomegranate tree in my yard, that has about 6 or 7 big trunks at the base (3-5 inches thick each ) a few of which have been chopped what must have been years ago and all have a strong leader growing off the top (maybe an inch thick and 6-7 feet long,
What would you say my chances are of air layering from high up on one of the large trunks?
Plant is healthy and just starting to put on new seasons growth all over..
can post a picture this afternoon if it helps
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 10:01 am
by Mbunro
how big is too big for an air layer?
have a big old pomegranate tree in my yard, that has about 6 or 7 big trunks at the base (3-5 inches thick each ) a few of which have been chopped what must have been years ago and all have a strong leader growing off the top (maybe an inch thick and 6-7 feet long,
What would you say my chances are of air layering from high up on one of the large trunks?
Plant is healthy and just starting to put on new seasons growth all over..
can post a picture this afternoon if it helps
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 3:03 pm
by Ray M
Hi Mbunro,
A photo would be helpful. What are the day and night temperatures at present in your beautiful part of Australia?
Regards Ray
Mbunro wrote:how big is too big for an air layer?
have a big old pomegranate tree in my yard, that has about 6 or 7 big trunks at the base (3-5 inches thick each ) a few of which have been chopped what must have been years ago and all have a strong leader growing off the top (maybe an inch thick and 6-7 feet long,
What would you say my chances are of air layering from high up on one of the large trunks?
Plant is healthy and just starting to put on new seasons growth all over..
can post a picture this afternoon if it helps
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 3:48 pm
by Mbunro
days are mostly 16-21 degrees this week,
nights have been about 10-12 but theres a few 7 degree nights forecast next week,
will get a photo up shortly so watch this space..
thanks
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 5:10 pm
by treeman
[quote="Mbunro"]
What would you say my chances are of air layering from high up on one of the large trunks?
Extremely good!
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 28th, 2016, 6:51 pm
by Mbunro
here are a couple of photos,
most of the trunks are smaller than i remembered so i assume most would be fine,
but i was more interested about the 2 big barky bad boys close to the fence.
theres another smaller clump of these trees to the left and out of frame but all trunks are about the size of the smaller ones in the photo, maybe an inch thick but very straight and long
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: July 29th, 2016, 11:44 am
by Ray M
Hi Mbunro,
There looks to be some nice foliage appearing on some of the trunks. I don't think you will have any problem layering this material.
Mbunro wrote:here are a couple of photos,
most of the trunks are smaller than i remembered so i assume most would be fine,
but i was more interested about the 2 big barky bad boys close to the fence. I would certainly give them a go.
theres another smaller clump of these trees to the left and out of frame but all trunks are about the size of the smaller ones in the photo, maybe an inch thick but very straight and long
Regards Ray
Re: Dangers of a Wet Layer
Posted: August 14th, 2016, 6:35 pm
by Bonsaiforest
Followed RayM's guidance with one of my very first air layers, very pleased with the results so far. Missing a space of about an inch in the front and another 1/2inch to the left of that (bit hard to see in pics) So followed Shibui's strip bark method to fill the gaps, applied rooting hormone & sphagnum & covered Ray Nesci's mix.
that it all works out, so that I'll have the beginning of nice even root system to develop into a fantastic nebari in years to come.