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Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 1:08 pm
by teejay
So a comment like if you can't draw, you cannot make a good Bonsai is in my mind redundant. I do not care who he is.
I can't draw to save myself so it's good to hear you say that.
The pictures posted at the beginning of this thread shows one tree that is considered an. Important Bonsai Masterpiece
Is that the formal upright White Pine? I've seen pictures of a very similar one being worked on by Kimura.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 2:24 pm
by Pup
teejay wrote:So a comment like if you can't draw, you cannot make a good Bonsai is in my mind redundant. I do not care who he is.
I can't draw to save myself so it's good to hear you say that.
The pictures posted at the beginning of this thread shows one tree that is considered an. Important Bonsai Masterpiece
Is that the formal upright White Pine? I've seen pictures of a very similar one being worked on by Kimura.
No not that one, one down two to go
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 4:29 pm
by aaron_tas
well if this has become a guessing game, then i reckon it's the one that has the two trunks in different directions...
what is it anyway
an azalea
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 5:53 pm
by Pup
aaron_tas wrote:well if this has become a guessing game, then i reckon it's the one that has the two trunks in different directions...
what is it anyway
an azalea
It is an Azalea and no. Now there's only the Important Bonsai Masterpiece left. It was not a guessing game Aaron some one asked if it was the pine, and I said no.
You aked if it was the twin trunk Azalea which was also a no. So I win the prize.
Pup
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 6:33 pm
by aaron_tas
aaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....
i nearly chose the maple, but i went for the more powerful one
i want a prize
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 7:42 pm
by Bretts
Thanks Aaron I had a bit of trouble getting a good look at this tree so I found a bigger one.
pigeon.jpg
The first part to the question was in your reasoning of when not to use a rule. Since this is not your tree I would ask if you can think why Daizo Iwasaki has used the pigeon chests here. Does this mean the rule is wrong or is there some reason that it can be ignored on this tree?
I would also ask the same for the privit forest. It seems to beak two rules the twin apex or twin trunk that is higher than the base of the tree and crossing of the trunk. Does this make these rules invalid and if not can you explain why it can be ignored in your composition and the composition still work?
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 8:56 pm
by aaron_tas
one way i read the rules is that they are a sure way for anyone, layman alike to make a miniture tree, with minimal visual issues, but...
the precise moment of when not to use the rule is, when your understanding of the message you want to convey in the tree reaches a point where you know that if you correct the "problem", you lose the sense of that particular moment you are trying to get across.
the trees in question are not "wrong", nor are the "rules", they both are easthetically pleasing to my eye, and i am not drawn negatively in any way toward the "problems"
like i have said before, if you can change a problem into a feature, you have another feature, and you have a much better chance at achieving a sweeter tree as a whole and there will be less or no problems.
that again depends on your artistic ability and the material you have to work with.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:14 pm
by Asus101
I like the privet setting, the fusion makes for an interesting subject. I will not say more on it as tree's in images are much harder to determine the full essence of the tree's.
I however agree, most "bent rules" seem to stem from the tree's flaws, giving the tree a more artistic feeling, making it feel a little more "naturalistic". This does not mean "japanese" perfect tree's are not artistic, they just have a completely different feeling. I cant seem to express my feelings in words that might make more sense.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:22 pm
by aaron_tas
Asus101 wrote:I like the privet setting, the fusion makes for an interesting subject.
thanks asus
Asus101 wrote:I will not say more on it as tree's in images are much harder to determine the full essence of the tree's.
thanks again, being an evergreen with no leaves, its gonna be more difficult for anyone else to see the "final image" also...
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:28 pm
by Bretts
Thanks for the thoughtful answer Aaron but I fear I must make you think some more, I hope you don't mind.
You have stated that you consider leaving the problem when it fits the story and that you turn the fault into a feature, this does not mean the rule is wrong but the tree is still aesthetically pleasing.
The part I was looking for that you left out is how do you accomplish all this? When you are faced with a fault how do you make it a feature that is aesthetically pleasing.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:35 pm
by aaron_tas
Bretts wrote:The part I was looking for that you left out is how do you accomplish all this?
there really is no magic bretts
Bretts wrote:When you are faced with a fault how do you make it a feature that is aesthetically pleasing.
techniques such as bending, carving, changing planting agle, or even just branch selection...
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:40 pm
by Bretts
Hmm yes you will use various techniques to acomplish what you decide to do but how do you decide what you will do to turn the fault into a feature and still be aesthetically pleasing?
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:42 pm
by Asus101
Bretts wrote:Hmm yes you will use various techniques to acomplish what you decide to do but how do you decide what you will do to turn the fault into a feature and still be aesthetically pleasing?
This is where an artist becomes a master of his chosen art form.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 9:50 pm
by aaron_tas
this is just purely my imagination, and everyone has different visions, so my response to a particular tree will be quite unique, as would yours.
Re: Rules were meant to be broken
Posted: October 5th, 2009, 10:01 pm
by Bretts
aaron_tas wrote:
i come from an artistic background and can relate very well the "rules" that [Robert] teaches.
i feel the design principals that the western world have so dearly clung to are by no means useless. nor are they to be followed perfectly to create a masterpiece, that is most unlikely. i like many others have learned well these "rules" and i alone decide when and how they are applied, with respect to the material at hand, and the relationship i would have between the viewer and the work.
i firmly believe (strongly influenced by robert stevens) that there is many more "rules" that the unsuspecting hobbyist is to consider, regarding such things as line, form, composition, balance, tone, etc.(for a comprehensive list, read all books on painting, sculpture and photography). robert's book vision of my soul is great for this.
there is more to art than "rules", but even the greatest artists follow the footsteps of thier predecessors in the beginning.
Surely there is more than just imagination at work here sure that is part of it but could someone who knows nothing about bonsai just use thier imagination to acomplish the same as Daizo Iwasaki has with this tree?