My opinon on why bonsai is in trouble and how to fix it.

[kcpoole]

That has go nothing to do with the nursery does it? but a lot to do with how members here behave. As a member of the moderator team, i very cognisant of that attitude and thankfully we have avoided most of that sort of comment.
we are happy to be notified of anyone misbehaving when they do.

ps, I still have my original $49 equivalent tree. . I am very happy with how it has developed over the last 15 years too

Ken

I didn't realise this was about nurseries, thought that was another thread (which has been locked, as a moderator you would/should be aware of such). the 2 are separate tho connected issues.

Totally aware that the other thread was locked and if bougy did not I woud have as it startign to get too personal and thus going down hill. it was locked to stop people getting antagonistic before it happened
The original post in this thread mentioned to prices of stock, and as that6 largely comes from nurseries then yes this is a thread in a similar vein, but differnet enough to as many different ideas are coming out.

As for members behaviour here it seems rather uneven in the way 'rules' are applied...

Got any particular instances?
As a newish member here for only a few months and not many posts you should remember them?, send me a link to them in a PM and i will happliy investigate. I do not read every post and neither does Bougy Fan, and as such I am happy to investigate any misdemeanour's of any member here.
If you go back over the years you will find many threads by some of our more Challenging members , that had to be moderated, and long standing members will remember many of them

Having said that we all need to remember that we all started out somewhere and to encourage and mentor everyone equally.

Ken

[trident76]

1. Bonsai is not in trouble. It has been around a good long time. Longer even than internet forums.
2. Bonsai nurseries will not save nor condemn bonsai. I will grow my own trees thankyou very much. As should you all.
Case closed.

[Pup]

1. Bonsai is not in trouble. It has been around a good long time. Longer even than internet forums.
2. Bonsai nurseries will not save nor condemn bonsai. I will grow my own trees thankyou very much. As should you all.
Case closed.

I dont think so

[Ray]

I've been following this thread, but not had time to add my 2 cents due to our club show commitments.

There seems to be a lot of nursery bashing or blaming going on for the lack of cultivation and growth in the bonsai scene, what needs to be considered is a nursery is a business and their motivation for survival may not be inline with others. That is business and you can't blame them for wanting to eat!

What the original posters question asks, can be answered simply and is already in place. Join your local bonsai club. It is there to educate people on how to grow better trees which will improve the standard and skill level of bonsai growers. Clubs offer the avenue to sell trees at more reasonable prices, saying that I have gotten some great trees from members refreshing or downsizing their collections. Clubs are where the bonsai population will grow, which in turn will feed the necessisity for nurseries to supply them. However, clubs don't happen by themselves, they need members to contribute and help create the drive that makes people participate and develop the passion that so many of us have. It is a relationship, you have to put the work in to keep it healthy.

I think Bonsai is healthy in parts of this country, we all need to contribute to take it to the next level though.

[SouthernSky]

Join your local bonsai club. It is there to educate people on how to grow better trees which will improve the standard and skill level of bonsai growers.

I've already said plenty about my opinion on bonsai clubs in this thread and another locked thread - but despite all of those reasons, the single biggest reason why I'm not a member of my local bonsai clubs is because people in my age group don't like to go to community centres or school halls, bring plates of finger food and listen to talks by elders telling us young'uns how everything we do is wrong.

I feel that bonsai is actually a lot more popular than most of us think. I'm 29 years old, and almost every single one of my friends has (or had, until recently) a bonsai in their homes (usually units, sometimes houses). Most of THEIR friends have or had a bonsai in their homes, and there are plenty of workplaces with trees in their display. Only a tiny percentage of bonsai owners ever get involved in clubs or formal training, but I believe that in a country like Australia that, since we don't have big backyards anymore, we as a culture are drawn to bonsai as a proxy, even if that's as a caretaker of bonsai, rather than engaging in the craft or creating art.

I engage with, but don't consider myself part of the bonsai community centred around the nurseries and clubs (that's you guys). There is another bonsai community that's far less visible - a community of mostly ethnic Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese growers with amazing trees that will never be entered in a competition or put on show outside their own backyards. I've had the pleasure of seeing incredible collections in suburban backyards only because my father or I happen to be in a Chinese grocery or Vietnamese restaurant, get into a discussion about the really beautiful tree in their window, and end up with an invitation back to the owner's house. For these growers, bonsai (or whatever names they choose to give their flavours of the horticultural arts) is a tie back to their home countries, and it's a different experience to mine (born and bred in beautiful Sydney).

My interactions with these two communities, and my observations about bonsai in the hands of people my own age, lead me to think that there's a Golden Age of bonsai yet to come, and sooner rather than later. The next bonsai community won't be obsessed with Japanese tradition, they'll embrace free-form ideas and develop them with their own individual personalities. I'm very much looking forward to it, and am going to do my best to play my part in making it happen.

[Inspired]

The next bonsai community won't be obsessed with Japanese tradition, they'll embrace free-form ideas and develop them with their own individual personalities. I'm very much looking forward to it, and am going to do my best to play my part in making it happen.

no japanese styled pots, no Japanese style presentation, no Japanese styled trees, no Japanese styled species, no Japanese way of bonsai ie training, developing etc etc???

Free form ideas? Might as well just put a tree or pot plant into a pot and let it grow freeform



I would like to hear what you have to say since the other thread was locked so I'll repost below.

I'd rather a tree with artfully highlighted character, even if it breaks your arbitrary rules, than one that's been crafted (butchered) to resemble a Japanese textbook photo.

Southernsky, can you further elaborate what you mean by artfully highlighted character that hasn't been inspired or influenced by as you call it Japanese textbook photo trees?

Let's not forget what Japan has done for this great art that we all enjoy?? Your unfinished website slogan seems to be "uniquely Australian" which to me implies Australian trees and Australian way for bonsai only.. well lets see how much influence "Japanese textbook" inspired trees and techniques you end up employing in your bonsai nursery..

Perhaps this is yet another reason why your more Japanese than the Japanese bonsai community is fading into oblivion...

Are you serious coz I highly doubt it..

Oh btw.. is that a Japanese Maple in your collection on your website?

Don't see no gumtrees..

[Inspired]

Your website photo also has some uniquely very Australian stuff..

Jade Money Tree
bamboo screens
2 x chinese pots with writing that i can see or are they japanese?
think i see a JBP.. can anyone else?

Nothing wrong with going Australian just don't rip another culture's contribution to the art when you aint so original yourself

[SouthernSky]

no japanese styled pots, no Japanese style presentation, no Japanese styled trees, no Japanese styled species, no Japanese way of bonsai ie training, developing etc etc???

Mostly derived from the Chinese. My heritage and my upbringing inform my identity as a modern Australian.

Free form ideas? Might as well just put a tree or pot plant into a pot and let it grow freeform

Absolutely. Sometimes the best looking trees are those given some neglect. I remember reading a thread about beautiful flowering Jacaranda bonsai that just wouldn't be possible without some neglect. I wonder what you think of the visual art of someone like Pro Hart, the Art music of someone like John Cage, the Jazz improvisation of Miles Davis, or TV shows like "Whose Line Is It Anyway" or even "Mork and Mindy". Spontaneous and unplanned art is, in my opinion, beautiful. Considering that the Chinese characters 盆栽 directly translate into English as "Tree in a Pot", I believe that it's right and proper to challenge our perceptions of what "Bonsai" actually is.

can you further elaborate what you mean by artfully highlighted character that hasn't been inspired or influenced by as you call it Japanese textbook photo trees?

Gnarled trunks covered in scars, a Dragon Tail-style cascade, varigated and non-varigated leaves on the same tree, Fruit growing out of proportion. Rigid rules can often obscure artistic potential. Whether or not the ideas are effective is besides the point - I'm attempting to expand my horizons of what's possible through experimentation.

Let's not forget what Japan has done for this great art that we all enjoy??

Let's not forget that bonsai is actually Chinese. I love watching Iron Chef and driving my Toyota as much as anyone (more than most on the first count), but my bonsai art is informed by my heritage. I doubt there are many other fourth-generation bonsai practitioners following our discussion.

Your unfinished website slogan seems to be "uniquely Australian" which to me implies Australian trees and Australian way for bonsai only.. well lets see how much influence "Japanese textbook" inspired trees and techniques you end up employing in your bonsai nursery..

I don't think that's what "Uniquely Australian" suggests at all, for the reasons I've already discussed.

Oh btw.. is that a Japanese Maple in your collection on your website? Don't see no gumtrees..

You saw one placeholder photo on an unfinished website taken on my mobile phone of the makeshift bench next to my father's work area. Not only is the photo the web design equivalent of "Loren Ipsum" (allowing me to visualise the design while writing the code), the 20-or-so trees in that photograph represent approximately one percent of the specimens in my backyard.

[Inspired]

That 1% is all I need to see. Good luck to you in whatever style you call it if it ain't bonsai

[Laurie J]

the single biggest reason why I'm not a member of my local bonsai clubs is because people in my age group don't like to go to community centres or school halls, bring plates of finger food and listen to talks by elders telling us young'uns how everything we do is wrong.

I'd love to chime in here. I am 27 (not that age means anything IMO) and I thoroughly enjoy going to meetings, learning from those more experienced than me. I have been involved in many clubs, starting with a dog training club I joined at 11 years old (that I am now a life member of) and then a car club that I joined at 19 (and am now Vice President and enjoy passing my knowledge on to the new members). I think the only way for hobbies to evolve and progress is to get the knowledge from those experienced then add our own experiences to those over the years. I think the closed minded attitude you've shown doesn't affect anyone here but yourself.

FYI: I also enjoy the coffee and biscuits at the Bonsai meetings after a long day at work

Laurie

[Bek]

I'll second what Laurie said about clubs. Unfortunately I didn't grow up with a family heritage of growing bonsai, so didn't have my own parents/grandparents etc to learn from. Instead, I joined a club where I'm learning a huge amount from other people's parents and grandparents , along with a decent amount of other 'younger' people. Since I've joined I've been given a huge amount of help from the other members, along with a stack of free stock trees from people who hardly even knew me. Far from Southern Sky's experience, quite the opposite in fact!

And yeah, I like finger food too!

[Graeme]

My interactions with these two communities, and my observations about bonsai in the hands of people my own age, lead me to think that there's a Golden Age of bonsai yet to come, and sooner rather than later. The next bonsai community won't be obsessed with Japanese tradition, they'll embrace free-form ideas and develop them with their own individual personalities. I'm very much looking forward to it, and am going to do my best to play my part in making it happen.

Mate, notice you copped a bit of disagreement with your comment, but do you know what? I agree with you. If we look at Bonsai around the world the Japanese influence is being eroded more and more. I think a lot of this has to do with the types of local trees people are experimenting with, along with the possible maturing of each countries "local" Bonsai style. Is this bad? Don't think so, I mean who wants to travel around the world and look at the same things? Isn't that why we travel, to see different things.

Does Bonsai need fixing? I don't think so either. From where I am sitting Bonsai seems to be travelling fairly well at the present time. There are enough shows happening around the place and the Bonsai requirements seem to be moving out of the Nurseries at a regular enough pace. Prices of the stuff we purchase in the pursuit of our hobby seem cheap enough (compared to a few years ago). During the time I have been involved in this hobby I have seem club numbers rise and fall on a pretty regular cycle. I used to worry when our club membership slipped a little but soon learnt not to worry as the numbers rose again fairly soon. Besides, why worry. Do you do Bonsai for yourself or for the multitude?

[Ryceman3]

Ok, so I've watched this thread like just about every other person whose logged on here in the last week or so and as far as I can tell, the original post was about offering the idea that bonsai needs a national Auction House type arrangement to keep it relevant and competitive. Then, the last post I read is about the relevance of bonsai clubs to the younger generation and the availability of finger food...?
I don't know, to be honest, if bonsai really is in trouble at all - I mean, I am a new convert and keen to find out more about it, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I'm not sure after reading most of this we are staying on track... Keep to the subject maybe!?!

[Guy]

If we can maintain the passion for the art and not the passion for the politics of the art---------------------------?

[Andrew F]

If we can maintain the passion for the art and not the passion for the politics of the art---------------------------?

Quoted for truth.