AusBonsai

Bretts wrote: Surely there is more than just imagination at work here sure that is part of it but could someone who knows nothing about bonsai just use thier imagination to acomplish the same as Daizo Iwasaki has with this tree?

If that person was an artist,then I would assume so, otherwise there is always chance. There maybe many reasons behind that chance,but chance none the less.

What Daizo has create took him a long time to learn the sculptural principles we have been talking of here. These things are what we need to strive to understand and employ in our own work.

i think that is the point, his conviction is a testamony of a lifelong relationship with the art of bonsai.

would you confine anyone with set rules, or would you let them experiment with complete freedom

i see a very young apprentice of walter pall, i bet walter backs his ideas 100 percent. by the time he is of DI's age, that young lad is gonna be a winner.

without technique your imagination is as good as a fleeting thought.

so i agree, any pleb off the street who knows nothing of bonsai, would have nothing on Daizo.

asus, you wrote...
What Daizo has create took him a long time to learn the sculptural principles we have been talking of here. These things are what we need to strive to understand and employ in our own work.

and prevoius you were having trouble getting your head out, are you kidding, you're sweet with words

Edit: written straight after my last post I will read Aus and Aarons replies now
Ok this could go on I will tell you what I see in his tree.
I only really see one pigeon breast and it seems to be more a branch than an actual trunk? The bottom is more of a vertical trunk that bends back and I see this as a nice feature but not a pigeon breast as it does not come forward at you. Now that jined pigeon breast "branch" could be removed and still have a very pleasing possibly more pleasing tree but then it might look like all the other junipers that are in this style. That would not worry me because unlike Daizo Iwasaki I don't have another 50 of them around the garden. But if we are to keep it.
I would probably class this as a forward poking branch and being a pigeon breast is actually a benefit in that regard as it does not point at you rudely like a normal forward poking branch. Now if you notice the two side branches you will notice that they are forward and at least level with if not in front of the pigeon breast branch, which I believe is done purposely to take away the impact of the Pigeon branch.

So I would say that when we are faced with the possibility of using what seems to be a fault as a feature and still have the composition aesthetically pleasing we don't ignore the rules we use them even more to make the composition work and stay balanced. Such as in Emils article we might tone down a flaw by making the rest of the composition more eye catching.

Now think of algebra again the rules in algebra are definitely not bendable other wise you get the wrong answer but the more understanding of them you have the more you can manipulate the equation to get to the answer you want. I think the rules of bonsai should be seen much the same way the better you know them the more you can manipulate and balance the tree to get the answer you want.
The problem we have here is that we have been given a flawed set of rules. Like I said stating that a trees height ratio must be 1-6 is laughable I believe many masters have consciously or subconsciously come up with a usable set of rules but we took the Americans false translation and wonder why we are confused.

Off course some one not understanding the design principles of creating bonsai could not make the creation of Daizo Iwasaki
The rules should not be looked at as a constraint but as a way to unlock your imagination

i personally get two on the trunk one in the branch and then they all add up to one big one overall...

but i do consider algebra easy

i would consider the "rules" of easthetics, in all art more like calculus in comparison, there is just so many different things to think about, how can you write one list of complete guidelines to paint a painting

try to keep the first branch at 1/3 on a dynamic cascade.

and i see what you are saying bretts, and you're not wrong. but if you were trained by a chinese penjing artist, i bet you'd have a more open mind on the matter.

wow this has been a super dooper discussion, strayed a bit, but i bet pup is lovin it

Bretts wrote:The rules should not be looked at as a constraint but as a way to unlock your imagination

this is good as

well said

Yes penjing is another subject again. I have considerd it but not in the context of this discussion. I find penjing very apealing but a recent tree by an exceptional artist has me wondering. I will get a picture of it for you tomorrow.

I would be intrested to see you point out the pigeon breasts in a virt Aaron but that could send the discussion sideways for a bit

Oh I never got past bar 1 in calculous.

Ya lost me guys when ya started with the calculus and Algebra. Also when you got to artistic's, but I came back for Manipulation.
It is amazing how different we see this. Then all come up with HALF decent thought's and Tree's. I might not live long enough to see the end of this though.

A style that has been in the Japanese Bonsai world for as long as most other's is one. Called Shizengi ( Natural style ) so it is not a new style. As I believe Bill Valavanis pointed out to our guru from Germany. Which let to a bun fight as can happen here at time's.

I like the different points of view though, as long as we remember and respect them. This as I have said, will teach us all something.
It is doing some thing my Doctor wants me do more of. Oh!! shari I forgot what it was.

Pup

Wow, i have gone back and read all of this in one sitting and it is spectacular. Stimulating, intellectual and, in places, very deep. I hope i can add something. I study Martial Arts and movement, Tai chi and chi kung, Internally and externally and have, from the beginning, had to follow rules. I consider Martial Arts an art form and it led me to Bonsai. I say led because if i did not have my previous study under my belt i would have missed my first introduction to Bonsai. Everything has rules, it is the building blocks on which art is built. The subtlety of how rules are interwoven into an art form is endless. We could not do our art form, be it Bonsai or movement, if it was not for these building blocks or rules. Let us change the wording and call them Basics. The perfecting of these basics is how we take our art form to a higher level. As a matter of fact we could not see the higher level if it were not for these basics or rules. We practise the rules all the time because we have all learnt from somebody as they have learnt from somebody and so on. So if we keep going back in this fashion we end up at the beginning and they were the people who were the rule makers. So,really there are rules and they are not up for change. They are our vehicle to the next level and that is what makes a true artist, how well he/she can do the basics and make them seem magical and if there is a flaw, how well he/she can make it blend and become part of the overall design. How does that quote go.. there is nothing new under heaven .. or something

Interesting Bodi maybe a good word is that the rules are refined. We don't break them or bend them but we continually refine them to our liking. The more refined we get them (whether written or subconsciously) the better we can manipulate them It signifies progression not learning rules which then need to be forgotten or often disregarded but always refining them.
I like that

Here is the picture of a penjing tree by Qingquan Zhao
I have been a stickler for a nice set of roots it really does add the element of age to a setting. Yet in Penjing this is not necessary. I am very naive with penjing but I believe the penjing don't need to look like trees but can even have animal shapes the imagination is king and anything goes.
The rules we have been discussing such as a radial root spread is meant to copy what an ancient tree has.
Zhao's tree is very appealing but I found the more I looked at it the less I accepted the roots that would be very improbable on a natural ancient tree. But then if I was to change the roots I would then find the triangle foliage top even more off putting and would want to change that. Confusing as I do like the tree as a refreshing change

It is funny that when discussing bonsai in a chat session one day at BT I was convinced to chop the trunk of a hornbeam. Then we where looking at another tree and it was remarked as perfect. I stated that the trunk had as little taper as the trunk they told me to chop so why was that great and mine needed chopping? Oh that is a Penjing tree they said My quite obvious question was "well why could mine not be penjing as well
I am since very happy with this tree that I chopped but now wonder ????

Bohdi I like that. Basics it is what our father's taught us and there father's taught them right from wrong. The Basics of life. All handed down from generation to generation.
The Australian Aboriginal has no written language as such, other than there dream time and rock painting's. Yet they know what is right from wrong in there culture. They are taught by the GUIDING hand of the ELDER"S of there tribe.
Guidelines can as I have said be bent and twisted like the trunk's and branches.
Rules are rigid not to be broken, as is there LAW on punishment as seen fit by there ELDER'S.

Ps your post came in while I was posting this answer to Bohdi.
Brett that difference you have made is something people get me wrong about.
What you have said is correct it is PENJING not BONSAI. I love both forms, of the art form. There is a difference though, and you have said it.

I have some in my collection there is a difference when I talk of Bonsai it is Bonsai. When I talk of Penjing I talk of penjing. Just another aspect of this discussion.
For us to consider.
Pup

bodhidharma wrote:Wow, i have gone back and read all of this in one sitting and it is spectacular. Stimulating, intellectual and, in places, very deep. I hope i can add something. I study Martial Arts and movement, Tai chi and chi kung, Internally and externally and have, from the beginning, had to follow rules. I consider Martial Arts an art form and it led me to Bonsai. I say led because if i did not have my previous study under my belt i would have missed my first introduction to Bonsai. Everything has rules, it is the building blocks on which art is built. The subtlety of how rules are interwoven into an art form is endless. We could not do our art form, be it Bonsai or movement, if it was not for these building blocks or rules. Let us change the wording and call them Basics. The perfecting of these basics is how we take our art form to a higher level. As a matter of fact we could not see the higher level if it were not for these basics or rules. We practise the rules all the time because we have all learnt from somebody as they have learnt from somebody and so on. So if we keep going back in this fashion we end up at the beginning and they were the people who were the rule makers. So,really there are rules and they are not up for change. They are our vehicle to the next level and that is what makes a true artist, how well he/she can do the basics and make them seem magical and if there is a flaw, how well he/she can make it blend and become part of the overall design. How does that quote go.. there is nothing new under heaven .. or something

this has hit home for me exactly as you have put it. bodhi thats beautiful ! therefor if we learn and perfect our basics to take our art form to a higher level. it is in this higher level that we now learn to embellish the basics.

bretts, not so much on this topic but i have been looking for some form of information about penjing and whether there is some sort of guidelines to it. ( i do have a very curious mind) and come across this article that you might find interesting, its about the similarities but vast difference between bonsai and penjing and the way it has been concieved.

any way best read it for yourself because its hard for me to explain, i did understand it but it is quite in depth.

http://www.venuscomm.com/renaissance.html

regards jamie

Thanks for that link Jamie it was a great read. Did you find the other articles attached to it?
I fluked onto them when I hit the back link from the comments page.
http://www.venuscomm.com/articles.html

I must have seen these articles before as I remember being to this page when I was looking at buying Qingquan Zhao's Penjing: Worlds of Wonderment. That's where the above picture came from and I would recommend it to anyone as a great book that really tells you how to go about creating the amazing scenery's that he does. He expects that you know how to care for your trees and leaves that out

Don't worry about what you want to comment on is staying on topic Jamie that is the beauty of these discussions they can end up anywhere. I think we have thrashed the rules debate about as much as we can in this regard I would love to start relating it to the Penjing principles

It has been a most interesting discussion so far and I also would like to thank everyone

It seems at least I can talk about the rules without being told it hinders my imagination so I am happy

Bretts wrote:I also would like to thank everyone

Does this mean we can spoon again?