AusBonsai Shohin Progression Competition 2013-2014

[Steven]

I can't help but think the rules suit one type of purchasable stock and leaves little room elsewhere.

Please explain Brett?
Steven

[Bretts]

The biggest issue would be that any sapling that needs wire to form the trunk in it's pre-bonsai stage is rejected. I think almost every tutorial I have ever seen for creating great shohin material includes wiring the trunk?

[Steven]

I think almost every tutorial I have ever seen for creating great shohin material includes wiring the trunk?

Not this one [Tutorial] Willow Leaf Ficus for Shohin Bonsai

[Bretts]

No I didn't say all and fig is a prime example of what I am saying. You did ask for the input but you seem to want to disprove what I have brought to your attention?

[Mojo Moyogi]

Good afternoon Steven, I would like a bit of a general ruling if I can.

I have a few Tridents and other deciduous trees that I would like to enter, which have had shoot pruning (not for design purposes, but pruning nonetheless and I accept that this is outside the rules and must be removed). I am quite prepared to remove the offending branches and shoots, which would enable back-budding at the base of the branch, and start over, but I am understandably reluctant to do so in March/April for the trees to comply at the 31st March deadline. Am I able to enter the tree in the competition, retain the offending branch until winter, then remove it?

Cheers,
Mojo

[Andrew Legg]

All,

I think what we need to do is look at the spirit of the rules here. It is clear to me that you can start with a tree that consists of a trunk, roots, and branches. The branches are not allowed to have been trained, and if they have, they should be removed. We all know what constitutes training of branches, so this is black and white! The roots are allowed to have been trained, and as for the trunk, it seems that training should be OK as chops are allowed. The question to Steven is therefore quite simple and direct with no need for insinuations or subtlety:

Is trunk training through any method allowed, or are we limited to chopping?

It's that simple people. If the answer is just chopping, just look for alternative stock and quit whining! If you want to invest the time and money to run a forum and competitions, go for it, if not, then either play nice or don't play!

Rant over!

Cheers,

Andrew

[Bretts]

Steven
For those of you who are questioning this years rules, please stop because these rules will not change. I do however welcome your input into next years competition and rules to help make them clearer and better. Actually, I really encourage and would appreciate someones help! It's not an easy feat and takes me considerable time.

To make it clear for you Andrew I am not questioning the rules or expecting them to be changed or even whining, But as you can see Steven has asked for the input. I gave the most constructive opinion I could of were I see they could be improved. I think that wire shaping of the trunk should be acceptable. Whether my advice is used or not in future contests is not a great concern to me although I do happen to think it is good advice.
I understand Stevens predicament in that whatever rules you put up there will be a grey area.
I wonder what would happen if I wired my roots and then did an exposed root style?
Here lies the problem. That is why I have always felt the simpler the rules the better. We are here to see and create great bonsai not try to put bonsai in pigeon holes.
Members could easily put stock up that has had wire before and claim that it hasn't. Yet they don't. Well there was one that ...... hmm that's another story

[Mojo Moyogi]

All,

I think what we need to do is look at the spirit of the rules here. It is clear to me that you can start with a tree that consists of a trunk, roots, and branches. The branches are not allowed to have been trained, and if they have, they should be removed. We all know what constitutes training of branches, so this is black and white! The roots are allowed to have been trained, and as for the trunk, it seems that training should be OK as chops are allowed. The question to Steven is therefore quite simple and direct with no need for insinuations or subtlety:

Is trunk training through any method allowed, or are we limited to chopping?

It's that simple people. If the answer is just chopping, just look for alternative stock and quit whining! If you want to invest the time and money to run a forum and competitions, go for it, if not, then either play nice or don't play!

Rant over!

Cheers,

Andrew

absolutely! The we agree Andrew, do we not?

My advice is identify your advantage and exploit it.

And once I have, I will.

Cheers and good luck,
Mojo

[Bebbas]

Geez people, just go and dig something untouched out of the ground or go to a nursery and buy something untouched. It's that simple!
If you have something that falls into "the grey area" (and we all know if we have a project that does) then don't use it.Save it for another day(or comp)!
Isn't it all about having a crack with some stock that hasn't had any input from someone that thinks/see's/breathes bonsai? To see what you can make of it? In a relatively short period of time?

[Andrew Legg]

Steven
For those of you who are questioning this years rules, please stop because these rules will not change. I do however welcome your input into next years competition and rules to help make them clearer and better. Actually, I really encourage and would appreciate someones help! It's not an easy feat and takes me considerable time.

To make it clear for you Andrew I am not questioning the rules or expecting them to be changed or even whining, But as you can see Steven has asked for the input. I gave the most constructive opinion I could of were I see they could be improved. I think that wire shaping of the trunk should be acceptable. Whether my advice is used or not in future contests is not a great concern to me although I do happen to think it is good advice.
I understand Stevens predicament in that whatever rules you put up there will be a grey area.
I wonder what would happen if I wired my roots and then did an exposed root style?
Here lies the problem. That is why I have always felt the simpler the rules the better. We are here to see and create great bonsai not try to put bonsai in pigeon holes.
Members could easily put stock up that has had wire before and claim that it hasn't. Yet they don't. Well there was one that ...... hmm that's another story

Brett, some comments have not been as positive as yours mate. We're all good.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Andrew Legg]

absolutely! The we agree Andrew, do we not?

My advice is identify your advantage and exploit it.

Mojo

It's a compo, so naturally you look for the best starting point within the rules. It's that simple. You'd be a fool not too. It's stuff like this that irritates me: "Dear Steven, 7 years ago my pet goat that was born in Fujikawa En and imported into Aus bit the end of the branches off my tree. As a result it has back-budded profusely. It seems my goat has developed a taste for bonsai, and has a surprisingly good eye , so this ramification and branch placement in the photos really was not me. As this is technically clip and grow and I have only spent about 30 minutes per day showing my goat flip cards with photos of Kokofu Ten trees, is this acceptable?" or "Dear Steven, I have a sleep pruning disorder that results in me unconsciously pruning and wiring my trees at night. I can never remember doing it when I wake up, but look at the fantastic results!! Given that this is a disorder that I have no control over, and that I'm not awake when I do it, is the tree eligible?"

Cheers,

Andrew

[squizzy]

Geez people, just go and dig something untouched out of the ground or go to a nursery and buy something untouched. It's that simple!
If you have something that falls into "the grey area" (and we all know if we have a project that does) then don't use it.Save it for another day(or comp)!
Isn't it all about having a crack with some stock that hasn't had any input from someone that thinks/see's/breathes bonsai? To see what you can make of it? In a relatively short period of time?

Thats my take on it bebbas. Problem is some of us just like the challange and the friendly suggestions while others need to have the tree that wins at all costs. In the end if I wanted first prize that bad I would save myself the hassle and give Pat K a ring with my credit card details rather than buy the $60 odd dollars worth of plant that I have.

I personally like the challange I have set for myself of buying some general nursery stock which I intend to manipulate into something that resembles a small tree without killing it in the process. The rules dont make it that clear cut though so I can understand some questioning from those that are keen to excel. One suggestion might be that absolutly no previous trainning work be done on the tree before it starts but thats a suggestion for another comp and not this one. I say if steven pays the bills he makes the rules.

Remember to have a little laugh everyday people

Squizz

[Andrew Legg]

Geez people, just go and dig something untouched out of the ground or go to a nursery and buy something untouched. It's that simple!
If you have something that falls into "the grey area" (and we all know if we have a project that does) then don't use it.Save it for another day(or comp)!
Isn't it all about having a crack with some stock that hasn't had any input from someone that thinks/see's/breathes bonsai? To see what you can make of it? In a relatively short period of time?

Thats my take on it bebbas. Problem is some of us just like the challange and the friendly suggestions while others need to have the tree that wins at all costs. In the end if I wanted first prize that bad I would save myself the hassle and give Pat K a ring with my credit card details rather than buy the $60 odd dollars worth of plant that I have.

I personally like the challange I have set for myself of buying some general nursery stock which I intend to manipulate into something that resembles a small tree without killing it in the process. The rules dont make it that clear cut though so I can understand some questioning from those that are keen to excel. One suggestion might be that absolutly no previous trainning work be done on the tree before it starts but thats a suggestion for another comp and not this one. I say if steven pays the bills he makes the rules.

Remember to have a little laugh everyday people

Squizz

[Damian79]

Absolutely agree. 100%

[Graeme]

Gosh, I was going to have a bit of fun in this comp with a lemon tree I have in the back yard, Unfortunately I sprayed it to rid the little tacker of some bugs so guess it's out of the rules now.

For goodness sakes kids, lighten up and enjoy the comp for what it is - a bit of fun. Surely it's about learning a bit more about how to go about our great hobby, rather than trying to give poor Steven ulcers over whether a branch has been trained or not. The rules are there, the rules are simple and they are plain enough that even I understand them. If you want to enter a tree, do as has been suggested and stick a pic up on here and I am sure an adudication will be offered. Roll on 1 April, when the real fun should begin (I hope).