AusBonsai

Ahoy!
Here is a Japanese Black Pine which I have somehow managed to get into this stage after 4 years of tinkering and experimenting. I believe for rapid strong growth this is the way to do it and I'm somewhat on the right track (like the way the Japanese grow their stock etc)
I have a few questions just about the sacrifice branches.

As I understand, with two sacrifice branches that trunk is gonna go nuts! However, there is a bend on the trunk at the moment, with one sacrifice branch on the inside of the curve and one on the outside.
Are there any detrimental effects to the shape of the trunk if a branch is in the inside of the curve? (inverse taper anything?)

Also, should I remove most of the needles on the sacrifice branches leaving like a 'lion tail' on the tops?

Also, just a note: I uncovered the soil to check the nebari, and it looks bloody fine
I hope to get things right on this tree cause I have about 15-20 other ones like this but are 2-3 year old pines and not yet into this stage!

Hi Boomy, the sacrifice branches should be spaced so you don't have more than one at any point on the trunk, they will only thicken the portion of the trunk below them. Its a good idea to strip off the foliage close to the trunk to allow light to get into foliage you may want to keep. I put a wire through the rim of the pot and pull the sac. branches down so they are well out of the way. Feed your pines like crazy over the growing season and don't hold your breath as pines take many years to thicken.
Hope that is of some help
Craigw

Hi Boomy , nice little project you have going there . Craig60's advice is spot on . just my :2c:worth the wire on the base looks like its done its job , i would be inclined to remove it before the bark completely covers it . Removal later on with definately peel the bark off . It can be put back on in a different line and continue to do the job or use a thicker one in its place .I have 5-6 sacrifice branches on some smaller trunks but none on an inside bend , i believe it will reduce the angle by fattening the inside .

The big JBP i purchased of Shibui only had them on the outside of the bend and the scar was about 30-40mm on the bottom one so it was a big branch .About 20mm was the next one at the next curve. Typical of a pine with bar branches or at the whorls they swell and fatten at that point more-so than a single branch. I have about 40 JBP's that i'm playing with using various methods so i'm learning every day.Best of luck with them .

Cheers Alpineart

alpineart wrote:Hi Boomy , nice little project you have going there . Craig60's advice is spot on . just my :2c:worth the wire on the base looks like its done its job , i would be inclined to remove it before the bark completely covers it . Removal later on with definately peel the bark off . It can be put back on in a different line and continue to do the job or use a thicker one in its place .I have 5-6 sacrifice branches on some smaller trunks but none on an inside bend , i believe it will reduce the angle by fattening the inside .

The big JBP i purchased of Shibui only had them on the outside of the bend and the scar was about 30-40mm on the bottom one so it was a big branch .About 20mm was the next one at the next curve. Typical of a pine with bar branches or at the whorls they swell and fatten at that point more-so than a single branch. I have about 40 JBP's that i'm playing with using various methods so i'm learning every day.Best of luck with them .

Cheers Alpineart

Alpine,

What is "the job" of the wire at the base? Does it fatten the base?

Glenda

Hi Glenda , it works like a tourniquet and restrict the flow of the sap/nutrients up and down the trunk .This swells the base of young stock very quickly .Simple put an elastic band on your finger and fell the finger throb and swell ,the wire does the same thing taking longer of coarse .The ridges make for good over all swollen movement at the lower base .The wire should not be a complete ring or circle at the bottom of the base , more like a spiral staircase at the bottom, having an opening so the nutrients can still move although restricted from the roots upward .If it was a complete ring closed at the base it may ring bark the tree and kill it or force it to produce roots above the wire which becomes a wire tourniquet as per layering pines .


A similar method of wiring can be used to produce a long shari from base to mid / upper apex , simply add another wire added each side of the first shorter and shorter than each other and left on for quite a few years ,many years on older stock .To aid the compression of the bark to produce the shari gently twist / rotate the trunk in the same direction as the wire is wrapped , this will produce a natural looking spiral shari as it eventually kills the bark under the wire .Hope this helps

Cheers Alpine

alpineart wrote:Hi Glenda , it works like a tourniquet and restrict the flow of the sap/nutrients up and down the trunk .This swells the base of young stock very quickly .Simple put an elastic band on your finger and fell the finger throb and swell ,the wire does the same thing taking longer of coarse .The ridges make for good over all swollen movement at the lower base .The wire should not be a complete ring or circle at the bottom of the base , more like a spiral staircase at the bottom, having an opening so the nutrients can still move although restricted from the roots upward .If it was a complete ring closed at the base it may ring bark the tree and kill it or force it to produce roots above the wire which becomes a wire tourniquet as per layering pines .


A similar method of wiring can be used to produce a long shari from base to mid / upper apex , simply add another wire added each side of the first shorter and shorter than each other and left on for quite a few years ,many years on older stock .To aid the compression of the bark to produce the shari gently twist / rotate the trunk in the same direction as the wire is wrapped , this will produce a natural looking spiral shari as it eventually kills the bark under the wire .Hope this helps

Cheers Alpine

Thanks, Alpine.

With regards to scarring the trunk, if you wrap the wire one way allow it to scar the trunk then remove and put the wire on in the opposite direction so you create a checker board of scars the trunk will swell more evenly
Craigw

Thanks heaps everyone!
I suppose its still alright to remove the sacrifice branch at this time of year? Or to thin out some needles?

Cheers!

Hi Boomy . if you are going to remove it , either leave a stub so a wire tournquet can be wound around tight to stop it bleeding like a stuck pig . If you remove it completely , simple rub sticky clay into the wound , it dries quickly and seals the sap and wound . It will weep a little if concerned simply rub a little more clay on . Some used cut paste , i never have, clay works on all trees that bleed .

I have used streri-prune but it needs to be repeated as when it dries out the wound does absorb moisture .Steri-prune also burns the new cambium so be careful not to get too slap happy with it , paint it on with an artists brush within 1-1.5mm of the cambium . Clay can be slapped on with no holding back .

Cheers Alpineart

There are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to pine development Boomy.

I did a little write up on using sacrifice branches on JBP here
viewtopic.php?f=104&t=2135

I will try to update it today.

I think your attempt is great but in my opinion slowing growth by removing any sacrifice branches could be a mistake at the moment.

Also you seem to have made a mistake with the wire as it seems to end before the base of the tree. When using wire like this generally it should start from under the roots. This will cause the swelling at the base where it is needed.

Where to from here is not an easy question. It will take alot of growth to correct the negative taper so if you want to grow this larger I would not remove any branches. Let it grow wild and not be too concerned about losing the curve as you have bigger issues than that.

Another option is to start working with what you have. Gradually remove the sacrifice branches and then after a couple of years carve the tree into a pleasing shohin.
Good luck

Just something to add to the comments and advice already posted regarding sacrifice branches. I use a method proposed by Brent Walston in his numerous posts found on the net.

Make sure you have several sacrifice branches along the proposed trunk line. JBPs have stovepipe type growth and having several sacrifice banches helps over come this natural tendency. That and cutting to the next branch in a clip and grow approach. Depending on the height of the tree, you may need one near the apex with others distributed further along down the trunk. Most importantly, have one below the first primary branch. The sacrifice branches should ideally not be in line with each other or other branches you wish to keep in the actual design of the tree. Branches at the same level promote the potential for inverse taper much like whorl branches do. If no such branches are available, consider grafting as necessary.

Next, let your sacrifice grow like mad. Let them grow a couple of meters above the tree if necessary. Consider pruning away any growth on the sacrifice branch close to the trunk so as to encourage the growth forward and avoid shading the main tree. Also pull needles and lightly prune as necessary to facilitate some growth in your other branches (i.e. the ones you will keep) as the sacrifice brancheswill inhibit growth elsewhere which is fine for now as long as the keeper branches stay healthy. Also lightly prune your keeper branches to promote tight growth and backbudding on these branches so you can use them when your completing your training phase. After all, you need to think years ahead with pines.

Next, cut away the sacrifice branches starting from the highest one up the tree over the next few years etc according to your design plan. Only prune away sacrifice if:

1. The branch has done its job adequately and you need no more thickening of the associated trunk section for your design

2. The sacrifice branch is creating some sort of problem e.g.threatening inverse taper etc

Most importantly, by keeping the lowest sacrifice branch to the very last moment and pruning away sacrifice branches with a top down approach, you promote taper that widens as you go down the tree. By comparison, if you prune the other way around (i.e. cut off the bottom sacrifice first and head upwards) the trunk thickening attributes you are aiming to achieve for your bonsai will go in the wrong direction.

I hope this makes sense. A diagram would have been nice but unfortunately I'm a bit time poor presently. Sacrifice branches are essentially the only way to get taper with JBPs. Using several at once and then pruning them from the top down over several years gives you the wide set taper we all seek.

A little home work on some previous thread for those newbies t o jbp like me