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Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 25th, 2012, 8:07 pm
by wiggs
Japanese Black Pine, forgive my ignorance, still learning.

How many varities of Japanese Black Pine are there, again if I am wrong correct me, but there is a long needled Japanese Black Pine and short needle one, or am I wrong? If yes, what are common names for them used? :lost:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 25th, 2012, 10:12 pm
by Andrew Legg
Hey Wiggs,

In my experience there are only two varieties. An alive one and a dead one. I seem to have a fairly even spread of these two. :whistle:

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 25th, 2012, 10:20 pm
by billa
Andrew Legg wrote:Hey Wiggs,

In my experience there are only two varieties. An alive one and a dead one. I seem to have a fairly even spread of these two. :whistle:

Cheers,

Andrew

HA! I too am aware of only one Japanese Black Pine!!! But what you may have seen is a ordinary one with large needles and a beautifully ramified one with tiny needles...possibly Mr Legg's before his died? Lol

Here is the scientific name and the common name in an array of languages; Pinus thunbergii (Syn: Pinus thunbergiana; English: Japanese Black Pine, Japanese Pine, Black Pine; Korean: 곰솔 ; Chinese: 黑松 ; Japanese: Kuromatsu; Kanji: 黒松.)

:imo: not really a beginners tree, they are mega hard. Mine has been in training for almost three years and still looks EXACTLY the same :lol:
Good luck in your JBP quest :yes:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 25th, 2012, 10:45 pm
by Hackimoto
As with many species of plant there is a great variation in the genetics of seedling trees. This is called seedling variation, strangely enough! Sometimes a superior mutation, which is more suitable for bonsai use turns up. There are the standard Japanese Black Pines and various others that have been selected because of their better qualities. Two of these are Yatsabusa, a dwarf form, which has rather smaller compact needles and growth, and Mikawa which has very fissured or corky bark. Both these and other mutations are usually grafted as this is the best way to propagate them. Here is an section of Evergreen Gardenworks
2012
Descriptive Catalog Unfortunately this is an American company.

Pinus thunbergii (Japanese Black Pine, Kuromatsu) A wonderfully hardy, tough tree that is native to the sea cliffs of Japan, enduring gale winds and salt spray. In Japan, gardeners grow and shape this tree with bamboo and twine, lashing the branches to form broad flat foliage areas to recreate the look of the twisted and tortured cliff dwellers. A twice yearly pruning will create flat pads of very dense short branches and completely control the size and shape of this tree. In June (timing varies with climate) remove all the new candles that are longer than one inch. Many new shorter candles will form a whorl of short branches. In November reduce this whorl of branches to a flat forked branch. In this manner the 3 inch green needles may be reduced to 2 or even 1 inch. Some of the oldest living bonsai plants are Japanese Black Pine. It has been a traditional bonsai plant for hundreds of years. Pinus thunbergii

See the notes under Pinus parviflora for information on grafting techniques. Again, as in Pinus parviflora, scion wood and decent grafts have been hard to obtain, and our cultivars have been held back to obtain more wood for the future.

A progress report on our work to offer you cultivars: We have been collecting Pinus thunbergii cultivars now for many years and grafting them to build a stock plant collection. For several years we have grafted small batches in numbers that will allow us to now offer some cultivar selections. Others will be ready in a year or two. Our attempts to purchase suitable grafted cultivars has just not worked out. We suffered too many loses and the grafts were too poor to be used for bonsai, thus we have decided to offer only our own root grafts (very low grafts that can be buried up to the union). We are also evaluating the cultivars to see which will make the best bonsai.

In the dwarf category or yatsubusa type, we have settled basically on three, 'Koto Buki', 'Yatsubusa' and 'Shun sho Matsu'. All of these have excellent dwarf characteristics but are quite different from each other. 'Koto Buki' is very dark green, very short needled, somewhat open and thick stemmed, a true dwarf. 'Yatsubusa' (at least the one we have selected, there may be some trouble with the naming) is very much like the species except for shorter needles and very compact dense growth (short internodes). This cultivar breaks buds everywhere. The growth rate is similar to the species, but the internodes are very much shorter, creating an incredibly compact plant. The other short needled cultivar, although not a true dwarf is 'Shun Sho Matsu'. It has incredibly short needles for a full size plant, ranging from about 1 to 1 1/2 inch. We are still experimenting this cultivar to see if it can be controlled to make good bonsai, but we think it has real potential.

Especially exciting is the progress toward offering cork bark Black Pines, Nishiki Matsu. These pines are very rare in this country, and only a few are in commercial production. Some of the ones we have collected are unnamed, that is, the cultivar name has been lost, and we are attempting to identify them. Others are known. One of the most outstanding plants so far is 'Brocade' (naming is uncertain and it appears to be identical to 'Hayabusa'). It is a fast corking cultivar as well as a yatsubusa type. This is very exciting since most of the Nishiki Matsu tend to have long whisker-y needles. Other cultivars we are now grafting include 'Hachi Gen', 'Kyokko', 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', 'Katsuga', 'Akame', 'Fuji', 'Mi Nishiki', 'Nishiki Tsukasa', 'Tai Hei', and 'Hayabusa'.

And lastly, another new development is our success in growing the Nishiki types from cuttings. This completely avoids the severe problem of grafting cork bark types. Even the surface roots of cutting grown plants will be corked. Our four year old cutting grown plants are beginning to swell at the crown, a very good sign for a good nebari and lower trunk. Thus far we have had success with 'Hachi Gen', 'Mi Nishiki' and 'Akame'. Since the move to the new nursery, Brent has not been able to set up a suitable propagation room for pine cuttings, so it is possible that we will never again have a supply of these. Once they are gone, there are gone. For this reason, many are being held back for training as larger plants. Each year a few may become available.

The supply of cultivars is always limited. If you want one of these don't delay in ordering. They will sell out very quickly. It is strongly recommended that you use the Waiting List.

For more information see the articles Training Black Pine for Bonsai and Growing Black Pine for Bonsai. Also see our Blog for several more pine articles.

7410 Pinus thunbergii Our larger trees are seedling grown plants that have been continuously pruned to form bushy plants suitable for bonsai or shaped plants. Our larger plants will not look like the plants commonly found in nurseries. We begin pruning them at the seedling stage to encourage low branching. Unlike deciduous plants, pines do not easily break buds from older wood, so that if you do not have low branching from the beginning you will never have it. On our trees you will see many small branches very low on the trunk so that there are many choices for branches later on. But leave all the branches, especially those very low on the trunk for several years to increase the diameter of the trunk at the base and obtain good taper. Two gallon size are developed to have lower branches, trunk movement and taper.
2 3/4 INCH POTS $8

7412 Pinus thunbergii 'Akame' A cork bark type black pine with very long (five inches or more) whiskery needles. It is popular in the US and the trunk and branches cork up quite rapidly. It is a vigorous grower. This cultivar roots more easily from cuttings than others and we have both cutting grown and grafted plants. The first pictured plant is one gallon graft, the second is a one gallon '99 cutting grown plant. The cutting grown plant will already start to show swelling at the nebari.
Waiting List akame '01 graft akame '99 cutting




7420 Pinus thunbergii 'Ban Sho Ho' This is a shrubby form of very compact habit. The needles are medium to long at about three to four inches. It breaks back very nicely and will make excellent medium sized bonsai at about 18 inches to 2 feet. This cultivar is intermediate in size and habit between 'Yatsubusa' and the species (seedlings).
ONE GALLON SIZE 2yr old graft $65

7423 Pinus thunbergii 'Brocade' A dwarf cork barked cultivar (Nishiki Kuromatsu) with very dense foliage. It buds back incredibly, very similar to 'Yatsubusa' in this respect. Fantastic corky ridges begin forming very early and are quite pronounced even in a five year old graft. This will make one of the finest small Nishiki black pines. The needles will also reduce nicely, easily attaining about two inches or less in length. Very low grafts are a must for such a small pine, and ours are right on top of existing roots. This cultivar is very similar to, and may be the same as, 'Hayabusa'. At present we are keeping the two separate and offering both. Pictured is '01 graft in a one gallon container.
Waiting List brocade '01 graft

7424 Pinus thunbergii 'Fuji' A cork bark type black pine. I have not had this pine long enough to adequately describe it. Steve's Pilacik's description from Japanese Black Pine is "A good corking variety with a little bit larger needle than usual. The grafted trees produce a thicker bark in a shorter period of time than the cuttings."
Waiting List

7428 Pinus thunbergii 'Hachi Gen' (Cork Bark Black Pine) We obtained this cultivar from Ken Sugimoto. As with many Nishiki cultivars, there is a problem with the naming. We are giving it the name supplied by Ken Sugimoto, but we have not been able to find it described in any text. It was reported to us that one Japanese company has it listed as 'Hachi Gen Kyokko', but it does not appear to be related to the well known cultivar 'Kyokko'. It has needles shorter than 'Kyokko' and it does not cork as fast.

It is a cork bark type black pine (Nishiki Kuro Matsu) that forms corky ridges rather slowly, fully developing in about twenty years. Grafts and cuttings develop bark that begins to 'crack' at about three years. The needles have good green color and are quite similar to species needles, not overly long (about three inches full size). It has white buds and is vigorous growing, breaking new buds quite easily. These are cutting grown plants, so there is no graft and the corking will extend down to the surface roots. All these plants have good low branching with the main leader still attached so you can decide how much low caliper you want. Pictured is a 4 year old cutting grown plant.

See SPECIMEN CATALOG
hachi99s.jpg - 6777 Bytes

7430 Pinus thunbergii 'Hayabusa' A dwarf cork barked cultivar (Nishiki Kuromatsu) with very dense foliage. See the description of 7423 'Brocade' above.
Waiting List

7436 Pinus thunbergii 'Katsuga' A cork bark type black pine that we obtained from Steve Pilacik. I have not had this pine long enough to adequately describe it. Steve's description from Japanese Black Pine is "A good variety for bonsai. It trunks up well, has red buds and deep green needles that reduce well. It also ramifies nicely". Pictured is a two year old low grafted plant.
Waiting List
Katsuga '01 graft

7441 Pinus thungbergii 'Koto Buki' This is one of the very few true dwarf Japanese black pine cultivars. The full size needles are just over one inch, and unlike 'Shun Sho' it slow growing with fairly short internodes. Another nice quality is that grafted plants tend to buttress right at the graft union, so a well executed low graft like ours will result in an excellent base for the smallest black pine bonsai possible. We have to charge a bit more for these due to the difficulty in grafting them.
Waiting List

7443 Pinus thunbergii 'Kyokko' A cork bark type black pine with long (four inches or more) needles. It is very popular in the US and the trunk and branches cork up nicely. It is a vigorous grower.
ONE GALLON SIZE 2YEAR OLD GRAFT $65

7444 Pinus thunbergii 'Kyokko Yatsubusa' A cork bark type black pine that was obtained from Steve Pilacik. It is reputedly a yatsubusa form of 'Kyokko', but I have yet to confirm this. Our young plants are beginning to cork irregularly along the trunk and branches at about four years.
Waiting List

7445 Pinus thunbergii 'Kujacka' We obtained this plant from Herb Kelley of Kelly's Plant World, and there may be trouble with the naming, I am working on it. It is a variegated needled type with sharp bands of bright yellow variegations in winter. It is clearly not 'Beni Kujacka' since the banding does not turn red after freezing. It is a somewhat lanky plant with thin stems and long fine needles of about four inches. It has red buds and thus may be a Japanese Red pine x Black pine cross. The variegations are very striking in winter.ONE GALLON SIZE 2yr old graft $65

7447 Pinus thunbergii 'Mi Nishiki' (Cork Bark Black Pine) We obtained this cultivar from Chuck Shane of Bonsai Grower nursery in Sebastopol CA. In the late 1970's He obtained this cultivar from a collector who is no longer with us, so the history, and possibly an earlier cultivar name is lost.

It is a cork bark type black pine (Nishiki Kuro Matsu) that forms corky ridges rather slowly, fully developing in about twenty years. Grafts and cuttings develop bark that begins to 'crack' at about five years. Ten year old plants show thickening in one plane, similar to the 'two winged' phase of corking. The needles have good green color and are quite similar to species needles, not overly long (about three inches full size). It has white buds and is vigorous growing, breaking new buds quite easily. These are cutting grown plants, so there is no graft and the corking will extend down to the surface roots. All these plants have good low branching with the main leader still attached so you can decide how much low caliper you want.
Waiting List
Mi Nishiki

7448 Pinus thunbergii 'Nishiki Tsukasa' A cork bark type black pine with medium to long needles (three to four inches). It is very popular in the US and the trunk and branches cork up nicely. It is a vigorous grower with very long internodes if not controlled. 'Cracking' of the bark starts at about four to five years and is first evident with a swelling at the base of the trunk.
Waiting List

7461 Pinus thunbergii 'Shun Sho Matsu' A very short needled, white bud cultivar. It undoubtedly has the shortest needles of any larger Black Pine, ranging from about 1 to 1 1/2 inches. These short needles, fat buds, and long thick internodes give it a very odd appearance. However, I think that this has the potential of being a very nice small bonsai with hard pruning to keep it under control. This cultivar breaks buds on old wood very easily. It should trunk up very quickly.
Waiting List

7464 Pinus thunbergii 'Tai Hei' This is another cork bark type black pine with that we obtained from Steve Pilacik. I haven't had it long enough to adequately evaluate it. Steve describes it as "An excellent nishiki for small to medium sized bonsai. Truly a white budded gem".
Waiting List

7465 Pinus thunbergii 'Thunderhead' A dwarf form making a broad dense mound. Dark green needles contrasted with white buds. This cultivar has been given short shrift in the bonsai community, mainly because of its medium to long needles (three to four inches). However, I have found that the needles can be reduced to acceptable lengths, and that its excellent ability to back bud makes it a decent candidate for smaller pine bonsai, perhaps not quite shohin though. It looks very much like a slightly larger version of 'Yatsubusa'
ONE GALLON SIZE 2 YR OLD GRAFT $65

7470 Pinus thunbergii 'Yatsubusa' A congested Japanese black pine with very short internodes and stark white fat buds. The foliage and bark are typical of the species, but it is the ability of this cultivar to break buds everywhere that make it so intriguing. Four or five year old grafts are so dense that you cannot see into them. It is a fast growing cultivar despite its short stature and will form a stout trunk as fast as the species. This is a superb choice for smaller pine bonsai, and our most popular Black Pine cultivar. Pictured is a two year '01 graft.

I hope tat this answers all your questions, See not such a stupid question after all. :tu:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 25th, 2012, 11:42 pm
by daiviet_nguyen
Good evening wiggs,

Hackimoto has covered a lot of ground there... good reading.

Might I offer my own answer too. I too have a few long-needle black pines. From the slight differences in the needles, I am guessing that I have two different varieties. But I do not know exactly if that is the case, or what their exact names are. But any normal (not dwarf) black pines from nurseries are good for me.

A popular short needles one is Pinus thunbergii "Mikawa" -- which do not have any. I understand that this is very desirable variety one.

Please post your trees :)

Best regards.

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 26th, 2012, 10:20 am
by dragon
hi wiggs and everyone else it has been a while since i been on here but as far as i know i have got 3 differernt jbp one is large ,medium and small hehehehehe :palm: :palm: but overall i think this has been covered by Hack and it was a good read when i finally found my spec's :geek:
cheers dean

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 26th, 2012, 5:24 pm
by billa
Well not only has hack answered the question but he did a pretty good job at hacking down my jbp ego lol I think by the time i finish reading his post it will be time to remove the wire off my jbp :shock:

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 26th, 2012, 5:46 pm
by Hackimoto
:lol: :lol: That was not my intention. :oops: You could start taking the wire off as you read it and you'd be finnished in a couple of hours. I hear that the particular American nursery that the passage came from is bringing out their catalogue in serial, paperback form, One of those "War and Peace" type novels. Check it out.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/index.htm

Re: Japanese Black Pine - Another stupid question

Posted: June 26th, 2012, 8:52 pm
by wiggs
Wow and thank you to all, such quality information and informative reading. All good knowledge to have and know.