AusBonsai

There seems to be some contention and a lot of confusion or misunderstanding as to why trees cost so much, and how their prices are determined.
Seeing the differing responses from members, I would like to open a discussion on how you would price your trees if you were selling some. The objectives are listed below along with some basic guidelines and ideas to get started. I will put up the first tree for comment/evaluation and see where we go from there.

Objective:

• To understand how the price of a tree is determined.
• To understand what the primary factors that affect price.
• To better understand other factors that influence price.
• To make it easier for the seller to estimate a price and therefore sell the tree.
• To assist new and experienced hobbyists get value for money.
• To establish whether price relates directly to quality.

Guidelines for the discussion:

• Show examples of your own purchases/creations.
• Give real support for your comments.
• Stay focused on the topic.
• Leave any prejudices you may have and consider only the tree in front of you.
• Due to the subjective nature of this topic, keep it to either field grown or container grown material.
• Only use examples of trees that are in a similar state of refinement to the one shown.
• If you don’t feel you can contribute to this in a positive way, please don’t!

Some ideas to ponder, because both field grown material and container grown material have some aspects in common, such as:
The initial cost of the material
Growing media
Cumulative cost of labour involved
Percentage of losses
Consumables - fertilisers, chemicals, water costs etc.
Period taken to develop the tree.
Consideration should also be given to:
The ratio of trunk diameter to height
Taper & Trunk movement
Branch distribution
Level of development including wiring scars and faults that need correction
Foliage size in relation to the size of the tree
Surface root system, location and appearance.
Cost of the pot is an obvious consideration you must take into account.
Is the tree and its design unique and natural?
Difficulty of obtaining this species, in my locality?

Here’s the first example:
This tree was field grown for an unknown number of years, I would assume around six. It stands 95cm tall above the pot and is 18cm across at the base. It has been in a pot for 10 years and the pot is worth approximately $80.00. I put a value on this tree of $700 and it is for sale for that. That figure is arrived at by way of viewing what similar raw material sells for in my area, adding the cost of the pot and a nominal figure of $40 per year for ten years to cover all consumables including wire, chemicals, potting mixes, fertilizers and the like. The raw material that I have compared it with is completely unrefined and would need to be brought back to the trunk and started from scratch.

If I were a retail nurseryman I would have to add much more to this final figure as I am sure that I would need to eat as well! How much is the tree worth, in your view? Why?

These are my thoughts on the subject and I welcome yours. Thank you in advance, for your participation.
Regards,
Brad.

Hi Brad
I am sure this topic is going to get a lot of air time - as it should. At the end of the day we all buy trees, be they nursery stock or fully grown.

I look forward to the comments and will also put some more thought into a more serious reply from my side.

One thing that immediately comes to mind is the point you raised: "Cumulative cost of labour involved"

The trick here is perhaps the reference point.
At varying times of our life we earn different amounts per hour and therefore the amount we use to judge a tree can vary immesurably.
From my perspective, when I view a tree on a "cost of labour basis" it is much more affordable than it was when I was on apprentice wages many years ago.

I suppose the other thing that immediately comes to mind is that a tree is like anything else in the world....it is worth as much or as little as the market is prepared to pay.
There lies the rub, the market is wide and as diverse as the internet is broad and far reaching...

Should be a good topic. A bit like ..........pull the pin out, put your fingers in your ears and then roll the grenade into the ring

Really do look forward to this one - Thanks

Regards
Steve

Thank you for your thoughts Steve. I am hoping that the topic can be discussed rationally in the same manner as you have commented, and yes it is a very subjective topic which may well have no outcome. I am hoping that isnt the case, but lets wait and see and keep an open mind. Thanks Steve.
Regards,
B.

Hello Brad... With all due respect a tree, any tree, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it! Nothing else matters...not how much money, time or effort you have invested or not invested in the material. No formula will ever work to determine value... Bonsai is a buyer's market...you can price stuff however you please but unless someone looks at it and sees something they like or something they may think is a deal then it really doesn't make any difference. No matter what the price, there will always be varying opinions as to the value.

Honestly, would you pay $700 for that tree if I was offering it for sale???

Just my thoughts...
John

Hi Brad,

The age, real or perceived, of a Bonsai is of course an very important factor contributing to it's quality in normal circumstances. It is part of a tree not something one can isolated and quantitatively put a price/cost on it. The way you determine the price of a tree will lead to severe deviation since the time, cost and consumables you spend on a tree may not be relevant to the quality of the tree.

At the end, it's the quality of the tree that counts toward the pricing. Age and time of care may be a contributing factor to it but not the determining factor. And sadly, when the tree started as an inferior stock and in the wrong hands for even ten years, it's price will still stay "inferior" and this is pretty common.

For the tree you posted, I believe it's a "Swamp Cypress", is pretty nice. My humble pricing on it should be aorund $250 to $350. My estimation only as I haven't see the real tree. I hope you don't mind.

For example. Will you pay $400 for this Fig? Suppose I have looked after it for 8 years plus the cost of the pot and the tree I paid 8 years ago. ( just an example, it's not mine)

I Believe that price is something very hard to define in bonsai, So many factors come into play. what one man may pay for a tree another man may just about faint. I guess its what you like and how much you want it. Given the swamp cypress listed above and what i see i think $700 isent too bad for this tree. I am however going off one front photo and cant see what branching is like at the back, any ugly scars from trunk chops etc which would change the price one might pay .
looking at the tree Its a large tree at almost a metre high ( not saying bigger is always more expensive. Ive paid 4 figues for shohin b4),
its established in a bonsai pot, It looks like it has well forming branches which are developing pads, this has taken sometime to develop that and almost certainly the branches have been wired at least once.The branch placement isent too bad, The top of the tree leans slightly to the right while the rest of the tree is quite straight. Wire should correct this, The nebari is ok, somewhat unusual but that might appeal to some people. It appears to be in excellent health.
Im in no way a price guru or an expert on what bonsai are worth. If i like a tree alot i maybe prepared to pay what someone is asking for it. Again there are many factors. Spending 8 years developing a bonsai dosent nessasary make it a good bonsai with value. It depends on what the artist has achieved in that time frame.

johng wrote:Hello Brad... With all due respect a tree, any tree, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it! Nothing else matters...not how much money, time or effort you have invested or not invested in the material. No formula will ever work to determine value... Bonsai is a buyer's market...you can price stuff however you please but unless someone looks at it and sees something they like or something they may think is a deal then it really doesn't make any difference. No matter what the price, there will always be varying opinions as to the value.

Honestly, would you pay $700 for that tree if I was offering it for sale???
Just my thoughts...
John

Hi John, Thanks for your comments; let’s take a look at them. Firstly you say that a tree is only worth what someone will pay for it. That being the case, you may end up selling the tree to the wrong people, the wrong market. You will generally find competition within the retail bonsai nurseries, if one nursery has certain material for $100, then another nursery will find it difficult to remain in the market if they are selling the same material for $1000. Yes there will always be varying opinions and I think that will become obvious here. And yes, I would pay $700 for that tree if anyone had it for sale, if I were in the market for one like that. With regards to there being no formula that will ever work, I beg to differ here, if there wasn’t, nurseries would not exist, and for that matter most business would fail, it’s a little like going in blindly, without a plan to recover your investment. Sure you lose on some trees, but that just adds to the cost of the other stock yet to sell.

Bonbon wrote:Hi Brad,
The age, real or perceived, of a Bonsai is of course an very important factor contributing to it's quality in normal circumstances. It is part of a tree not something one can isolated and quantitatively put a price/cost on it. The way you determine the price of a tree will lead to severe deviation since the time, cost and consumables you spend on a tree may not be relevant to the quality of the tree.
At the end, it's the quality of the tree that counts toward the pricing. Age and time of care may be a contributing factor to it but not the determining factor. And sadly, when the tree started as an inferior stock and in the wrong hands for even ten years, it's price will still stay "inferior" and this is pretty common.
For the tree you posted, I believe it's a "Swamp Cypress", is pretty nice. My humble pricing on it should be aorund $250 to $350. My estimation only as I haven't see the real tree. I hope you don't mind.
For example. Will you pay $400 for this Fig? Suppose I have looked after it for 8 years plus the cost of the pot and the tree I paid 8 years ago. ( just an example, it's not mine)

Hi Bonbon. Thanks for your comments also. You can put a price on what the tree has cost you mate, it’s simple enough to work out, what I think you are eluding to is the "special" character of an individual tree, which is more difficult for sure.
We are using this tree above for an example bonbon, I am not really understanding this comment I am sorry "The way you determine the price of a tree will lead to severe deviation since the time, cost and consumables you spend on a tree may not be relevant to the quality of the tree".
Yes the tree is a swamp cypress, my apologies for not stating that. As I mentioned in my post Bonbon, I asked for people to show me an example of your tree for the money, it’s too easy to simply say I would offer $200 or $300 for it. I want to see some examples of actual material mate, this thread has an objective.
Your comment regarding would I pay $400 for the little fig I assume is some sort of suggestion that what I have stated regarding the time the example tree has been in training etc is not correct. I assure you it is correct.

noah78 wrote:I Believe that price is something very hard to define in bonsai, So many factors come into play. what one man may pay for a tree another man may just about faint. I guess its what you like and how much you want it. Given the swamp cypress listed above and what i see i think $700 isent too bad for this tree. I am however going off one front photo and cant see what branching is like at the back, any ugly scars from trunk chops etc which would change the price one might pay .
looking at the tree Its a large tree at almost a metre high ( not saying bigger is always more expensive. Ive paid 4 figues for shohin b4),
its established in a bonsai pot, It looks like it has well forming branches which are developing pads, this has taken sometime to develop that and almost certainly the branches have been wired at least once.The branch placement isent too bad, The top of the tree leans slightly to the right while the rest of the tree is quite straight. Wire should correct this, The nebari is ok, somewhat unusual but that might appeal to some people. It appears to be in excellent health.
Im in no way a price guru or an expert on what bonsai are worth. If i like a tree alot i maybe prepared to pay what someone is asking for it. Again there are many factors. Spending 8 years developing a bonsai dosent nessasary make it a good bonsai with value. It depends on what the artist has achieved in that time frame.

Hello Noah
Yes you are most definitely correct and thus, this post. To give you a better idea of the tree, (and please forgive me for not posting more pictures of it, but it is now almost completely bare and I don’t have any suitable pictures of other side that have been taken recently enough) The only remaining scar on the tree is just under the apex, there are no scars whatsoever left on the trunk. The back branching is much the same as the front, in fact if one wanted to, you could remove the apex and regrow, changing the front.
I agree, 8 years developing a bonsai doesn’t by any stretch of the imagination, automatically make it a good bonsai, I have seen plenty of people turn good material into very ordinary material in a lot longer time, but we do need to just focus on the outcome here and hopefully, at the end of it we all have a little better idea on the list of objectives above. Thanks very much for your thoughts Noah.


So far so good, thanks for your contributions so far everybody. Please reread the initial post before posting in an effort to keep on track though.

Regards,
B.

I suppose that there are two different roles here one as the buyer and one as the seller.
As a buyer I would want to pay the least amount of money as possible for material and I would sometimes offer less than the asking price.
But as a seller I would want to sell the tree for $XXX.XX because of the many factors already stated...

Also if you think of Bonsai as an Art, then pricing becomes far more subjective. I work opposite an art gallery, and often see some ridiculous prices on "Art". At the same time there are people buying it, makes you think

Elias

Your comment regarding would I pay $400 for the little fig I assume is some sort of suggestion that what I have stated regarding the time the example tree has been in training etc is not correct. I assure you it is correct.

Hi Brad,

I totally believe what you stated the age of the tree is correct.
What I wanted to say is: the quality of a tree may not be relevant to the time, effort and money someone spend on it. So, calculating the price by cost of consumables per year X number of years as a factor of pricing a tree is not appropriate.
Your swamp cypress is nice. Don't take me wrong.

Hi Bard,

Just saw this one on Ebay.

1985 Moreton Bay Fig Bonsai

So...........just for consumables alone: $40/year, it will be $40 X 24 = $960.
The tree and the pot cost $100 to say the least.
Then this tree should have a price tag of > $1000

I am bidding on it for it's nice root spread. I reckon it should be closer to $100 rather than $1000.
What do you think?

I have a reproduction of one of Van Goghs Sunflowers hanging on my wall. It is virtually exact in every way and only an art expert or connoisseur would know the difference. The original sold recently for $40,000,000.00 USD and mine cost me around $250.00. My copy was painted by a very good artist 100 years after Van Gogh painted his. Why such a difference? Is it because Van Gogh was so original and a visionary? Is it because his work has been marketed cleverly? Is it because he painted with everything in just the right proportions like the 'rules' stated?

Another point to consider is supply and demand. Australia just doesn't have enough enthusiasts who are prepared to pay large sums for top quality bonsai. Perhaps one day that will change.

A very interesting thread Brad that is sure to get a lot of discussion. Thanks!

Regards,
Steven

Bonbon wrote:Hi Bard,

Just saw this one on Ebay.

1985 Moreton Bay Fig Bonsai

So...........just for consumables alone: $40/year, it will be $40 X 24 = $960.
The tree and the pot cost $100 to say the least.
Then this tree should have a price tag of > $1000

I am bidding on it for it's nice root spread. I reckon it should be closer to $100 rather than $1000.
What do you think?

Bonbon, please read the original post. Try to stick to the guidselines provided.

Steven wrote:I have a reproduction of one of Van Goghs Sunflowers hanging on my wall. It is virtually exact in every way and only an art expert or connoisseur would know the difference. The original sold recently for $40,000,000.00 USD and mine cost me around $250.00. My copy was painted by a very good artist 100 years after Van Gogh painted his. Why such a difference? Is it because Van Gogh was so original and a visionary? Is it because his work has been marketed cleverly? Is it because he painted with everything in just the right proportions like the 'rules' stated?

Another point to consider is supply and demand. Australia just doesn't have enough enthusiasts who are prepared to pay large sums for top quality bonsai. Perhaps one day that will change.

A very interesting thread Brad that is sure to get a lot of discussion. Thanks!

Regards,
Steven

A very relevant point here Steven. If this tree where produced by an admired artist such as Walter Pall, what would the price tag be? We all know the answer to that question.
Your second point that we dont have enough enthusiasts to pay large sums of money, whilst that may be true to a point, we dont have the volume of entusiasts either. I do however know that trees have been sold here in Australia for many thousands of dollars and continue to sell quite regularly for these larger sums.

B.

Bonbon wrote:Hi Bard,

Just saw this one on Ebay.

1985 Moreton Bay Fig Bonsai

So...........just for consumables alone: $40/year, it will be $40 X 24 = $960.
The tree and the pot cost $100 to say the least.
Then this tree should have a price tag of > $1000

I am bidding on it for it's nice root spread. I reckon it should be closer to $100 rather than $1000.
What do you think?

in my opinion, bon bon is within the guide lines. and has also hit the nail on the head with a sledge hammer! dont just blow this post off as not sticking to your guide lines.

Brad Loma wrote:A very relevant point here Steven. If this tree where produced by an admired artist such as Walter Pall, what would the price tag be? We all know the answer to that question.
Your second point that we dont have enough enthusiasts to pay large sums of money, whilst that may be true to a point, we dont have the volume of entusiasts either. I do however know that trees have been sold here in Australia for many thousands of dollars and continue to sell quite regularly for these larger sums.
B.

if walter pall had anything to do with this tree, it would be a very different tree i would imagine.

these regular sales that are happening are probably a very niche group. the same buyers buying from the same seller. by world standards a P in the ocean. i put forward that in australia there might be people who are willing to spend the bucks but there is no where enough top quality stock in this country. and this is why there is crapp out there asking top dollars.