AusBonsai

It was interesting to read bonsaisensations post about what people want from a nursery. And that, sadly, a nursery was planning to close down in Sydney. But what is the real issue here? Why is it that bonsai is not developing in Australia? Let's look at it; Sydney has quadrupled in population since the early eighties, but it still only supports about 6 nurseries, about the same number as there was in the eighties. Really, there should be 24 nurseries in Sydney by now, what's going on?

I think the main problem is that bonsai are too expensive, and starter trees (that is 1-4 year old trees in plastic pots) are too cheap. I look at bonsai (ie trained trees in bonsai pots) offered in nurseries and on average these bonsai are 5-6 times more expensive than they are really worth.

Over priced bonsai causes a lot of problems;

Firstly; people look at nursery trees to judge the value of their own trees. When all the bonsai everywhere are overpriced, they don't sell. The circulation of bonsai, from experienced to intermediate to inexperienced practitioners stops. People with less experience are not prepared to buy expensive developed trees because they may die on them and they've lost their money; so the market dries up. People who buy trees are people starting a collection, so if there are no new people coming into the hobby because trees are too expensive, then there is no market for nurseries to sell to.

Secondly; trees that are overvalued sit on benches forever. This is a problem as most people only have so much space, and if the benches are full, they stop buying trees. This is a big problem for nurseries. The total national space available for trees gets full and the market stops.

Thirdly; people won't cull their own dud trees because they perceive they have value, which clogs up the benches with rubbish that no one wants. People look at overpriced rubbish in bonsai nurseries and think their own rubbish trees have value, so the national collection of trees doesn't improve. Rubbish has to be culled if bonsai is to improve in this country. It happens in everything else, farming, manufacturing, professions such a doctoring, why not in bonsai?

Fourthly; starter trees are too cheap. I go to Ray Nesci and buy 2 year old cuttings for a few dollars, this is how much they cost 20 years ago! So how does a nursery make money, they don't, not on starters. They have to put huge mark ups on rubbish bonsai and hope to sell them to people ignorant of what good trees are. The low price of untrained trees is happening across the nursery industry, Bunnings, Big W and other stores have forced plant nurseries out of the market and now they dictate prices. If we want bonsai nurseries to continue we should be prepared to pay 10 - 20 dollars for a young starter tree, $30- $40 for something in a 200mm pot. This will make nurseries profitable again.

To fix this price imbalance we need a commodities market for bonsai, and an education program for people to learn the real cost of starter plants and not go to big stores to buy starters.

Bonsai are a commodity and have to be treated as such, we need an auction house that operates 4-6 times a year in every capital city, that anyone can go to, to sell and buy bonsai. It has to be available to anyone. Only this way can the real baseline value of a bonsai be established.

The problem is bonsai is an art, and art is only worth what someone wants to pay for it. Most of the time its value is only perceived to be something. So I have a tree, I think it's worth $2000 but if only one person is prepared to buy it a $20, then that is what it is truly worth. And bonsai people have no real idea what a tree is worth because of the inflated prices of nurseries skews their perceived value. Only a regular, frequently operated auction house, a commodities market, can define the real value of bonsai.
As prices become realistic, beginners will buy more developed trees and not worry about losing them, people will cull rubbish from the benches because there not worth anything, and trees will be traded and moved around for other people to practice and develop, because they become affordable to do so.

This will take time, maybe 5-10 years for prices to become established, so it will require someone with a lot of money to lose to start up an unprofitable auction house, or a national institution will need to run it, such as the bonsai clubs association.
I see this as the only way for bonsai to improve and develop in this country.

What do you think?

Paul

Interesting read, sounds like a fair assessment to me

A lot of thought went into that and I don't have enough experience to contradict anything mentioned, besides I agree that, like Coles/Woolworths/Aldi, the Green shed will come in and destroy the local nurseries (let's face it, most of us love a bargain) so we are our own worst enemies!
I do believe that standards and valuers (while not always making us as individuals happy with their judgement) will or shod that be "can" do a
Lot to improve the status AND the overall value of Bonsai!
Business has this everywhere in varying formats!



Cheers
EZ
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Add to that the information age which has made big inroads on the typical bonsai nursery trade. Your average nursery will simply be outpaced (or increased profitability lost) if they are not willing to revisit their business model and make some improvements into new territories.

We've come along way in 100 years but most bonsai nurseries still trade like those back in the golden years. Foot in the door method.

Information is readily available and shared and as people become more aware and savvy, the demand (or willingness) to pay good money for the bulk of most stock/bonsai will decrease.

My biggest gripe as a seeker and buyer of worthy material is the lack of quality material for sale.

I've just about given up on shows and expos as coming to these places, I would think their would be ample good stuff (trees) to buy but hell no!

Good exhibit trees mostly though so pop along to see these.

The last one I went to, someone boast 70 plus field grown trees would be there.. I was horrified by what I saw and was vastly disappointed with the standards that these sellers have been allowed to setup and sell as with most shows and expos. Seriously cmon guys.. nuff said about the rep of those clubs or shows

Inflated prices, poor quality stock for sale, the lack of trade and the inability to date of bonsai nurseries being able to flaunt their stock effectively = a recreational hobby for most that will for now remain just that - a recreational hobby.

I really like that you decided to post this. It's a huge issue that we will need to overcome if we want Australian bonsai to succeed into the future. What you have to take into consideration is that bonsai nurseries are businesses that are trying to make a profit. I've talked to some of the owners of Sydney nurseries about things like profitability and the truth is that bonsai people aren't willing to buy the good quality expensive stuff they produce. That's why you see a lot of nurseries have heaps of the small cheap stuff and barely any quality stock. Take Ray's for example, how much of the big expensive stuff in the corner do you think he sells? or even the ausbonsai market day earlier this year, how many of the expensive trees sold? A lot of nurseries do have the quality stock that has the potential to make good bonsai, but, bonsai people undervalue it and aren't willing to pay for it. So I think pricing isn't the problem, it's that bonsai people aren't willing to buy the good stuff. This is why nurseries are selling the crap stuff expensive and the starters cheap, because that's what people are buying and it's the only way that they'll make a profit.

Another thing to remember is that nurseries here generally grow stock and aren't that concerned about developing trees any further. So they can get away with overpricing crappy trees without any real competition and also because most bonsai people in Australia won't buy those trees to begin with and there is no competition. If we were somehow able to move to a model similar to Japan or US where we have different levels of growers we could easily decrease price of trees as their would be a guaranteed purchaser of stock produced by nurseries, enabling them to produce better, cheaper stock. But again the problem comes down to willingness to pay of consumers.

I think another big issue is that our quality of bonsai for sale in this country is low. Say that someone from Japan came to look at the price of our stock. What we would perceive as being say $50, they would price much lower. And also that the big stores such as Bunnings and Flower Power all get their bonsai from the nurseries.

So while I think a bonsai auction would be a great idea, I don't think it would be a good price regulator or the way to improve bonsai. I think your point about education though is the better solution. As the price regulation is already coming from us the consumers and the producers. If we can educate people about how to produce quality bonsai and to value good stock and good trees we can easily make bonsai in the country better. But it comes down to willingness to pay. If we want to truly support bonsai and bonsai nurseries we should stop buying the cheap starters and start buying the developed stock. Not only will this drive revenue for nurseries, but, it will also increase our collective quality in this country.

Sorry for the long rant, but, this is an issue that I think about a lot.

I agree. I remember many years ago there were many more bonsai enthusiasts at club meetings .

I once knew a gal who collected modern "collectible" cookie jars. She had a great collection of well over a hundred jars that cost her better than $50 a pop. Want to know how much they were worth after all those years and effort? For the good ones, about $20-35 a pop and that's for things that don't need to be tendered, watered, trimmed, styled, fertilized, repotted and protected from thieves. She didn't have to worry about quarantine laws, pests and fungus, the weather or a zillion and one other issues, and she didn't make dollar one from her collection.

Bonsai is an art form and unfortunately it is a living art form. That means the owner has responsibilities towards the tree or it will quickly look ugly at best, or die at worst. It is probably the case that only other bonsai enthusiasts are willing to accept that responsibility therefore the target audience is very small and hence the number of dedicated bonsai nurseries is commensurate with that scale.

Not that I want to see any bonsai nursery go out of business.

Wayne

Bonsai is still very young in Australia , it is still gaining it's foundations. I can only speak about nuresries i know of/frequent and although they try to cater for most experience levels I believe a major concern is Not enough Larger(thicker) trunks available. Most are generally small and while this is ok when in the first couple of years it soon becomes evident that great Bonsai are not usually developed from such measly stock. Bonsai Nurseries need to become involed with Growers of stock and collecters of Yamadori Trees which can offer more promise to those who need it. The Price of such stock would be irrelevant , as quality grown stock and Yamadori are most usually worth the asking prices. Is that not how Ryan Neil's nursery operates? Buying and trading quality!
Australia would also benefit from a more close nit Bonsai community. One which holds National Bonsai competitions and events. The Society I'm sorry just does not do enough.
Through National Competitions and other events Australian Bonsai Artist will Grow and it's exposure to the general public will also benefit the Art. Their abilties and want for more options will lead to a need for Bonsai Nurseries to Cater to Artists needs, working closer with them to provide great stock which will be needed to Grow Bonsai at Higher levels of Quality.
More attention needs to be focused towards Australian Artists and the Trees they grow instead of Trying to keep up with what's happening in Europe or Japan.
Australian Bonsai

Billy, Bonsai has been actively grown in Australia since the 60's with a few pioneers like the Koreshoffs etc, growing them since the late 40's.

Interesting thread Paul and hope we can get some good info and ideas here

What is stock trees worth and how much do we spend at them?
it is a vexing question and one that probably has many facets to it as well which makes life harder. For me I try ot put aside some money each week to spend on good stock and supplies, and that works out maybe $10 a week. With that money, I have bought a few stock trees of up to $150 over the years. So am not a big spender

how much should we pay for stock though?

If we want bonsai nurseries to continue we should be prepared to pay 10 - 20 dollars for a young starter tree, $30- $40 for something in a 200mm pot

I think another big issue is that our quality of bonsai for sale in this country is low. Say that someone from Japan came to look at the price of our stock. What we would perceive as being say $50, they would price much lower.

I look around Rays nursery and look at the stock trees 150 - 200mm pots of $30-40 or so and they are probably about 6-8 or so years old, which work out at $5 - $6 per tree per year. When you look at the work that goes into developing a stock tree is that a fair return?
I have heard overseas prices of $10 (or equivalent) per year for stock.
How long does it take to get a JBP or Juniper to the size that we all drool over?

Ray has very nice Ground grown stock for $200 and up and i suspect that many of them are 20 + years old,
They have been lifted, root pruned, shaped and nurtured, but @ $10 per year that works out at about 6 minutes per tree to get there.

Maybe Shibui or Bodhi can comment on what dollar value per year is reasonable and sustainable.

A few years ago, Peter Adams spent many hours at Rays nursery looking at his stock trees and made the comment that many of them would be 3x the price if in a US Bonsai nursery
how can we really compare pricing to other countries?
should we try?

I was discussing Bonsai pricing recently, and the comment was made that commercial Bonsai nurseries over price their trees to try and maximise their profits. As business, that is what they are supposed to do.
What would be reasonable return on their investment?
I just guessing assume that a nursery like Rays might have 3-4 staff, Bills, Interest payments, Lease payments, vehicle costs, stock purchases, and all that might be 500K per annum.
Assuming that, it is for sure a lot of $50 trees to sell each year


The thought of generating interest in Quality trees through quality shows and exhibitions is a good one. The Sydney clubs are bandying together to get a really good show on yearly, but it takes a lot of work.
Our quarantine laws prohibit moving trees across Australia so a national show may not work , but an east coast one might. Any one want to get one together and fundraise to make it happen?

interesting discussion
Ken

I would chime in here with a controversial comment.

It seems quite a few people think they're bonsai masters after 5 years experience in the hobby. I know there are several members on this forum that agree with me with regards to unsolicited critiques of a tree for example. We should be encouraging not criticising their tree.
My friend Alpine art for example, has had unfair and ignorant comments about his work, and I take exception to this. Its made me drop out of three bonsai societies in recent times due to peoples negative comments about my trees, and a few friends agree and have also let their club memberships lapse.

rant over, thanks for the indulgence.

You will notice that no nurserymen are fielding the debate. it is all coming from people not in business. I have many collected trees with 8-10 years work in them and all over a grand and i cannot sell them. Standard answers include, i like to grow my own, the tree is to large etc. These questions have been asked many times on A.B and probably older heads are a little tired of it. Want the real answer? There are not many Aussie's willing to part with big bucks for a good tree, there are some but not many. We would rather buy a big screen T.V. A fellow Aus bonsai person said it VERY WELL when he declared that wealthier people need to become involved in Bonsai. They would then drive the market towards investment in Bonsai as collectable, but this is not the case, as yet, in Aust. Maybe in the future? Feel free to howl me down but i work 7 days a week usually long hours to try and keep up to no avail. No such thing as Bugger it, i am having a night off. I earn very little sometimes nothing per week but i love what i do. i am another of the Nursery's not replacing stock as it is sold and not growing anymore ground grown trees until i will close my doors also. My worth.

Brian I couldn't agree more on your comments. People put their trees on hoping for a bit of encouragement and they get shot down in flames. We should all be helping one another not criticising. I have seen some newbies to bonsai get really upset over thoughtless comments. What looks nice to someone may not be to the taste of others. A lot are over the top in thinking they are bonsai masters. It is a shame people should stop and think before speaking.

I guess bonsai is an art and everyone thinks their art and their skill is the best.

It does lead to competitiveness and envy at times.

Bonsai is not in trouble---------- when all is said and done,my hobby is about me creating something that pleases me. We should ask ourselves "If all bonsai nurseries shut down and there were no nurseries in oz ,would I still do bonsai ?
for me it is about me and the 'tree',not me and the 'business'-------so,no more bonsai nurseries? ----we can still make something from nothing. My ego trip is no-ones' but mine.
The bonsai industry will either develop, or not. Either way I will have a collection(worthless, or priceless)that both frustrates and pleases me. But ,of course, that could be the merlot talking