AusBonsai

I have had this tree for a loooong time and have never really done anything with it. It has age and size but has been the recipient of a failed layer experiment and practise of different styling. It used to have a different angle of growth on the canopy (which was taken off, see scar) and a complete rework of its root system and should have died (it did'nt, duh) and, from memory, one of my very first trees. I dont even know how i got it. It has only ever been in wire once i think and only the bottom branches and leader. So, i am posting it for its styling possibility's and it will be developed by ONLY using the clip and grow method as i have always wondered what they used to do before wiring. All those great trees that are hundreds of years old were worked on before wire came into being. I know i should cut the leader back to the right hand one but i will develop it as is and see if ramification can add the refinement needed to turn this into a nice tree. A couple of things interest me about doing this.
1)..Wiring stops knuckling or scarring developing in branches as we wire to shape.
2)..what will the branching look like when cutting for shape is needed.
3)..will the scarring be an enhancement of age or a detraction.
4)..How much longer will development take.
I have always wired and also cut for development but never just clip and grow. I also want to see if the tree can look decent enough, as i consider this a very average tree, and will good ramification enhance its appeal. Will the scars grow out. I hope i have enough time left

Very interested to see the results, keep up the good work Bodhi

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I'm a big fan of the clip and grow to create naturalistic branches and by all means experiment but the simple fact is that you cannot make a good Acer palmatum without wiring. Clip and grow has it's limitations especially with rigid species like this.

Phoenix238 wrote:Very interested to see the results, keep up the good work Bodhi

Onya Phoenix,

treeman wrote:I'm a big fan of the clip and grow to create naturalistic branches and by all means experiment but the simple fact is that you cannot make a good Acer palmatum without wiring. Clip and grow has it's limitations especially with rigid species like this.

I am with you Mike but i always wire. This is about "How did they create before wire" nothing else. I have lots of other trees to wire and i am having fun. I have found a lot of ego comes into Bonsai with the desire to have "The great tree" I am now getting back to having fun because i lost that somewhere along the line.

bodhidharma wrote:

This is about "How did they create before wire" nothing else.

Well they used weights on string, bits of wood to brace and prop. I have a couple of ''pre wire'' books, there is no question that the trees are not up to the quality of today.

I have lots of other trees to wire and i am having fun. I have found a lot of ego comes into Bonsai with the desire to have "The great tree" I am now getting back to having fun because i lost that somewhere along the line.

You can still have fun trying to create the ''great tree'' doing it the modern way. Forget the ego, just do it to satisfy yourself, It's nice to get recognition and anyone would be lying if they said otherwise, but I have always done bonsai for my own pleasure. It was 15 years before anyone saw my trees. In the end, everyone else can go jump!

Interesting topic.

To me, this tree shows both the good and the bad in clip-and-grow. The bottom left-hand branch is complicated and interesting - more so than a lot of wired branches that end up just looking the same as all the others on the tree. The two top middle branches show what doesn't work - they are thick, long without branching, parallel - I'd consider taking them back to a low node and starting them off again. (Bearing in mind that when you cut a high thickish branch, the new shoots may have very long internodes, and you're back where you started.)

The trunk for me has a nice line that goes off to the top left branch, and anything that distracts from that could well be reduced (the other three high sub-trunk/branch thingies?). Maybe if the trunk leaned a little more to the left, the line of the trunk could be a little stronger?

I don't think it's as far off resolving as you do Bodhi - maybe make more branches like the low left, and give it a direction.

Another splendid thought provoker from Bodhi - thanks for posting.

Gavin

I agree, very interesting. Surely they would have had anchoring long ago though. Just tie string or cross down the branch with bamboo for the larger branches.

You can make great trees using clip and grow method on our natives, together with anchoring, but I agree it would be hard on trees like this.

Silly Question Department:-

with the branches growing back so frequently, would removing EVERY branch (big or small) be too radical?

It would/should allow you to rebuild the tree completely!

It would build the thing that seems to be good, the trunk line, and remove the things that have been mentioned as less good, the branches (big and small) so you could start with a white canvas ...

View this question knowing I don't have or ever have had an AP, ever... and that I am in the second year of my journey (first year was spent destroying all manner of plant life)!

would that not work?!?!

CoGRedeMptioN wrote:,

would removing EVERY branch (big or small) be too radical?

No

Thanks for the replie's and i will answer as best i can

GavinG wrote:Interesting topic.

GavinG wrote:I don't think it's as far off resolving as you do Bodhi - maybe make more branches like the low left, and give it a direction.

Thanks for the input Mr "G" and i agree with most of what you observed, except the "Its not far off" part
I will play with the trunk angle next repot as i have had a difficult time finding the trees front AND angle. I too, thought of cutting the middle branches back to the first off shoot and going again and that could/should still happen. The apex is driving me nuts as my temptation is to cut it down to the right hand (could be) leader but then it would end up the same as what everybody else would do. We will see what a couple, or few, years does.

Rory wrote:I agree, very interesting. Surely they would have had anchoring long ago though. Just tie string or cross down the branch with bamboo for the larger branches.

Hi Rory, i am sure they would have used all sorts of tricky stuff. I saw a tree in Omiya that has never had a wire on it and it was, as you could imagine, stunning. Unfortunately it was 400 hundred years old Dont think i will make it this lifetime.

CoGRedeMptioN wrote:with the branches growing back so frequently, would removing EVERY branch (big or small) be too radical?

Hi Co,
Sure i could but most of the branches are worth saving, or at least, working with them. I viewed tree's in Japan that had many faults like for instance, upper bar branching, which happens in Nature. The trees where very old but with that much ramification you could not fault it. Only lower bar branches stick out like the proverbial. A tree that had very obvious reverse taper, and when i , with all my Western knowledge, pointed it out, i was given the answer of "so what, the tree is over 200 hundred years old" so i learned to appreciate it just from that point of view. We have a long way to go but, i believe we will get there. Lets look at this tree in another ten years of developing ramification and make a decision then. its about the experiment that i am enjoying. Lets understand that i have many trees that i stripped back and that is not this tree;s purpose.

All I use is Lingnan, with a bit of pulling down by string or wire.

It will do what you need, but it is better to work on several trees of the same type and transfer the knowledge / experience to the master tree.
Once you can get the tree to grow constantly, and even better if you plan the shape [ drawing is best ] it becomes even easier.

On a planned tree [ seedling ] cuts are small, usually heal well and the tree appears very natural and "seamless ".

A lot of enjoyment.
Laters.
Tambrand

Tambrand wrote:All I use is Lingnan, with a bit of pulling down by string or wire.

It will do what you need, but it is better to work on several trees of the same type and transfer the knowledge / experience to the master tree.
Once you can get the tree to grow constantly, and even better if you plan the shape [ drawing is best ] it becomes even easier.

On a planned tree [ seedling ] cuts are small, usually heal well and the tree appears very natural and "seamless ".

A lot of enjoyment.
Laters.
Tambrand

Thank you for all that advice T.B all very useful.

I think the thing that most people forget about in the clip and grow method is the 'Grow' part of the eqation. People keep cutting back too hard, too frequently and constantly thinning at too early a stage. Let the tree establish its own strong lines and go with it, leaving plenty of minor branching, buds etc. Anything to slow down and diffuse the growth through hundreds of growing points.
Then , after a period of years , start to thin out the weakest and unnecessary branches, which only leaves very minor scars or cuts that heal quickly.
This then leaves the multiple strong lines you are after and plenty of drama, movement and unexpected lines.

Grant

Grant Bowie wrote:People keep cutting back too hard, too frequently and constantly thinning at too early a stage. Let the tree establish its own strong lines and go with it, leaving plenty of minor branching, buds etc.

Guilty as charged. It was a bad habit of mine early on. I even lost a few because of cutting back way too often. You live and learn. I feel that only after practising the hobby for a lot of years does one really appreciate what this means. You actually learn what is meant by the word patience. I recall back in about 2000 I actually lost a few old Huon Pine to this. I also severly stunted a lot of my younger deciduous stock at the time as well. Apparently it was a bad idea to cut back hard every month. --->

Ray Nesci at the time, after I queried him about it early on in my hobby, advised me to acquire more aged stock so as not to get trigger happy with my cutters and which helps with the patience. Though at the time I felt he had alterior motives, he was right. He showed me a good idea of how long to leave stock growing before the next cut back.

Doing nothing at the right time is called "Masterful Inactivity"!

Grant