AusBonsai

I have about 10 trident maple seedlings, about 1-2 years old (thanks neil) that I want to make into a group setting.

The question is: they have been chopped in height and don't have many branches, they need a lot of development. Should I develop them individually or plant them all up together and develop them together?

Here's a pic

Individually

treeman wrote:Individually

hey Mike, is that so they don't have to compete for nutrients etc....in the same pot, and weaker ones stay weak?
My guess is they can grow individually and the grower can manipulate how they grow according to what
they want the overall scene to look like and then put them together once they are all strong and healthy

Is that right? (Im new to this and look forward to reading everyone's answers.)

Jason57 wrote:

treeman wrote:Individually

hey Mike, is that so they don't have to compete for nutrients etc....in the same pot, and weaker ones stay weak?
My guess is they can grow individually and the grower can manipulate how they grow according to what
they want the overall scene to look like and then put them together once they are all strong and healthy

Is that right? (Im new to this and look forward to reading everyone's answers.)

Im not sure the reason would be strength, in my experience so long as there is an abundance of nutrients at the right time, Tridents shouldn't need to compete for nutrients.

Having said that, my approach would be to develop them together. While tridents can take pretty hefty root work, I'd still rather get the placement done now, and develop the shape from there.

Developing individually means you may end up spending time and the trees energy on growing and ramifying branches that will end up being chopped off anyway.

We'll see what everyone else has to say, but that's just how I'd approach it.

Cheers,
Mo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm with Mo on this one. If you plan a clump, grow a clump. It'll help to get all the roots and branches in the right places.

Developing individually means you may end up spending time and the trees energy on growing and ramifying branches that will end up being chopped off anyway.

Makes a lot of sense.......I don't have experience with maples but I see what you mean regarding growing time.

thank you

Buy once branches are formed wouldn't you struggle to wire them without damaging the other trees, especially if all the canopy's are close together?

Since their is no branching what so ever wouldn't it be best to grow them individually to see where branches are going to form in order to determine placement?

It just seems to me that development would be faster in establishing said branches if they were potted separately?

Forgive my noob thinking if I'm completely wrong.

Pearcy001 wrote:Buy once branches are formed wouldn't you struggle to wire them without damaging the other trees, especially if all the canopy's are close together?

Yes to that question but that does not mean you dont do it. it just takes longer and you need a lot more patience. But..that is Bonsai. I wire this yearly.

Many years ago visiting master Tom Yamamoto advised to grow trees destined for groups close together so they develop the characteristics of group trees (few branches, branches on one side, similar trunklines, etc).
I'd make these trees up into a group now. If you want the trees to grow a bit put them into a larger tray or poly box. If you are aiming for a smaller forest of smaller trees use a smaller tray.

One of the problems of developing group trees together is that the centre trees (that should be the larger ones) have competition all round and don't grow as fast as the ones around the edges where they have less competition. You can manage that by careful pruning and it is also usually possible to take a group apart and reassemble them if something doesn't look right in a couple of years.

Pearcy001 wrote:Buy once branches are formed wouldn't you struggle to wire them without damaging the other trees, especially if all the canopy's are close together?

Since their is no branching what so ever wouldn't it be best to grow them individually to see where branches are going to form in order to determine placement?

It just seems to me that development would be faster in establishing said branches if they were potted separately?

Forgive my noob thinking if I'm completely wrong.

Just to add to the responses, it's not any more difficult wiring a large group than a single tree with an equal size canopy. The difficulty, as has been pointed out, is balancing the strength where it is required.

But that is no different than regular trees, we're always trying to balance strength across the canopy anyway.

It's just better time management and design management to group them now. Let the trees share exactly the same conditions to ensure they are as flowing as possible with one another. Trees behave differently when they are grouped and this is what we want to highlight and pronounce.

Cheers,
Mo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bodhidharma wrote:

Pearcy001 wrote:Buy once branches are formed wouldn't you struggle to wire them without damaging the other trees, especially if all the canopy's are close together?

Yes to that question but that does not mean you dont do it. it just takes longer and you need a lot more patience. But..that is Bonsai. I wire this yearly.

MoGanic wrote:

Pearcy001 wrote:Buy once branches are formed wouldn't you struggle to wire them without damaging the other trees, especially if all the canopy's are close together?

Since their is no branching what so ever wouldn't it be best to grow them individually to see where branches are going to form in order to determine placement?

It just seems to me that development would be faster in establishing said branches if they were potted separately?

Forgive my noob thinking if I'm completely wrong.

Just to add to the responses, it's not any more difficult wiring a large group than a single tree with an equal size canopy. The difficulty, as has been pointed out, is balancing the strength where it is required.

But that is no different than regular trees, we're always trying to balance strength across the canopy anyway.

It's just better time management and design management to group them now. Let the trees share exactly the same conditions to ensure they are as flowing as possible with one another. Trees behave differently when they are grouped and this is what we want to highlight and pronounce.

Cheers,
Mo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the wisdom guys, much appreciated!

Some very valid points from both corners!!! Thanks so much for the input and suggestions.

I think I will grow them together because I think that the trees will develop naturally to form a group.

I did want to put cd's under the roots to create some nice nebari. I think May be a little tricky with a large number of trees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Homer911 wrote:I did want to put cd's under the roots to create some nice nebari. I think May be a little tricky with a large number of trees.

Maybe smaller CD's? Im sure you could pick up mini CD's from somewhere that may be easier to put that close together, especially with the trees being so small currently.

No need for cd or anything under the trees
just prune the roots fearlessly now- cut of ALL downward roots to just leave a few laterals, even if that means the tree has almost no roots. They are tridents and will just laugh at such treatment. Later the shallow tray will encourage lateral roots even more and the nebari will develop.