AusBonsai

I noticed this Pine was sulking in it's pot for a long time. I finally decided to have a look. Way too late as it turns out
Sure enough, not one healthy root to be seen. This must have been going on for months!
It has severe root rot however I think it was caused by the removal of too much of the top too soon. There was not enough left to adequately feed the roots. The roots begin to die and you end up with fungal attack of what's left.

It's a Pinus tabulaeformis (Chinese red pine) and has quite a promising trunk I think.

However, the roots are mostly all black and dead.

Not much hope.

But still a tiny bit of hope so I cut back to what looks like unaffected tissue.

And a good soak in Banrot. It will be a miracle if it survives. Place your bets.......

Heres hoping its a nice tree!

Hi Treeman

Such a shame looks so promising. May be it pulls through!!!

May I ask what kind of soil or substrate your using??

May be not enough drainage?

Cheers

Rolf

Reece wrote:Heres hoping its a nice tree!

A classic example of why commas are needed.



...seriously Mike.... that is a tragedy.

I've lost so many spectacular trunks to root rot. The only time I've ever managed to pull one back from the brink was I repoted, cut off the rot and hoped. It was simply a matter of having found it in time, not so much what I did afterwards. So often, stored energy produces some more foliage, then they've slowly died. I feel your pain.

rolfster wrote:

May be not enough drainage?

Not enough drainage?!!....Not enough drainage!!!!!!?

No, there's plenty of drainage. I use course bark and gravel 50/50 You could pour water on it all day and it wouldn't well up. And before someone says too much drainage, it's not the drainage.

treeman wrote:It has severe root rot however I think it was caused by the removal of too much of the top too soon.

This I find really interesting. If this is an issue for pines and other evergreens, how about when you ring-bark or wire tourniquet to ground layer a maple? How long will the original root system live, before the lack of sap starves it and they start to rot?

Oh no!
All may not be lost, do you have any other healthy Pines in stock. If so use the soil from the out size from three or four trees. You need to have at least 2/3 of the whole repot of old soil.
As you would do a late/out of season slip pot/repot with out disturbing internal root system from your healthy Pines. Then take this outer soil from existing HEALTHY Pines break it up with some fresh soil I use the bonsai mix by Debco I get it from Masters (I know nobody likes it but that doesn't matter now) you must have minimum 2/3 old soil from Healthy trees 1/3 Of the bonsai mix if you want you can repot this in a bonsai pot if it is big enough to go at least an inch - 1 1/2 past what is left of the roots no smaller. Make sure there is gravel in the bottom of your pot. I use the sand/gravel that you would use in the bottom of a fish tank not fine sand. Ensure there is 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the bottom of the pot. Also the roots that you have now trimmed put hormones on the fresh cut ends. Then repot into above mixture. Water well with Seasol place tree if at all possible on a concrete driveway/paving etc... in semi/ dappled shade morning sun only. Allow pot to be fairly dry before watering again. Please note if you repotted all your Pines this season the soil you have will be of no use. It must come from trees due to be repotted full of the benifical mycorrhiza. Good luck
Cheers

KIRKY wrote:Oh no!
All may not be lost, do you have any other healthy Pines in stock. If so use the soil from the out size from three or four trees. You need to have at least 2/3 of the whole repot of old soil.
As you would do a late/out of season slip pot/repot with out disturbing internal root system from your healthy Pines. Then take this outer soil from existing HEALTHY Pines break it up with some fresh soil I use the bonsai mix by Debco I get it from Masters (I know nobody likes it but that doesn't matter now) you must have minimum 2/3 old soil from Healthy trees 1/3 Of the bonsai mix if you want you can repot this in a bonsai pot if it is big enough to go at least an inch - 1 1/2 past what is left of the roots no smaller. Make sure there is gravel in the bottom of your pot. I use the sand/gravel that you would use in the bottom of a fish tank not fine sand. Ensure there is 1/4 to 1/2 inch in the bottom of the pot. Also the roots that you have now trimmed put hormones on the fresh cut ends. Then repot into above mixture. Water well with Seasol place tree if at all possible on a concrete driveway/paving etc... in semi/ dappled shade morning sun only. Allow pot to be fairly dry before watering again. Please note if you repotted all your Pines this season the soil you have will be of no use. It must come from trees due to be repotted full of the benifical mycorrhiza. Good luck
Cheers

Thanks Kirky,

This is excellent advice and normally I would do something similar. However as I have soaked the roots and new mix in a strong systemic fungicide, there is no possibility of mycorrhiza surviving in that environment for at least two months. If by some miracle the tree pulls through I will definately re-introduce the mycos. I have plenty of it under the trees of the same species growing in the garden.

Truth wrote:

treeman wrote:It has severe root rot however I think it was caused by the removal of too much of the top too soon.

This I find really interesting. If this is an issue for pines and other evergreens, how about when you ring-bark or wire tourniquet to ground layer a maple? How long will the original root system live, before the lack of sap starves it and they start to rot?

Don't know but as long as the top roots does it matter?

Rory wrote:

Reece wrote:Heres hoping its a nice tree!

A classic example of why commas are needed.

Yeah that was lazy. Haha....



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I dont use systemic fugicides. I sit mine in honey overnight gather my soils and ensure they are well watered before potting honey has natural anti fungal properties as well as rooting hormones. It really needs the micros
I hope it survives
Cheers

treeman wrote:

Truth wrote:

treeman wrote:It has severe root rot however I think it was caused by the removal of too much of the top too soon.

This I find really interesting. If this is an issue for pines and other evergreens, how about when you ring-bark or wire tourniquet to ground layer a maple? How long will the original root system live, before the lack of sap starves it and they start to rot?

Don't know but as long as the top roots does it matter?

It's for a shohin, I want to know how far back I can trim the new roots in winter, to get ramification close to the trunk. I'll only do it if the old low (starved) roots can still support the tree however though.

Hi Treeman. I think we will see more of these problems with current fad for artificial soils! I believe natural soils contain many forms of flora, fauna and minute chemical ingredients that assist the tree with developing healthy roots. After all that is what they have developed with.

The only alterations to normal soil I see as necessary is to ensure that our potting mix has good draining and sufficiently matches the soil profile that the species developed with.

Personally I find that a mix containing roughly equal proportions of good quality potting mix and river sand most approximates natural soils. Many years of using this mix has shown that it works efficiently with all tree material and I have never had any root rots or other problems. Both exotics and natives thrive in it. If it has shown any problems it is that root development is too good!

If you would like more details of the mix please let me know.

Dennis Mc

G'Day Dennis,
I agree with you. In the early days of starting Bonsai, only time I had any trouble with my trees was when I tried more exotic mixes, more bark and river sand in my mix. I also introduced Akadama, tried these for two seasons results for me were not good lost trees to rot. I too have gone back to natural soils. Haven't lost a tree to root rot since the change back. Akadama is now strictly used for Azalea cuttings, then they are potted into normal soil mix. You have to find what works for your area/conditions and your watering/feeding regime. What works for one does not work for all.
Cheers

dennismc wrote:Hi Treeman. I think we will see more of these problems with current fad for artificial soils!

Dennis, what artificial soils are you referring to? Diatomite, Pumice, Zeolite, Akadama? If so, none of these are artificial, and I would suggest that there is more root rot present around the country in potting mix than all of these mixes combined.